Re: Prisoners to get the vote
Actually this hasn't come about by some thief smoking drugs in his cell.
This has come about because a guy who bludgeoned a woman to death challenged the law about losing his right to vote. You won't get any argument from me that he lost his right to vote when he commited his crime, but what about the people who went to jail for refusing to pay the Poll Tax, should they lose their right to vote as well? Someone living below the poverty line (and yes it does happen in this country, quite a lot) steals to feed themselves or their family, should they lose the right to vote as well?
If the threat of death actually worked, then countries where the death penatly was allowed would see zero crime that would end in that punishment, it doesn't work and they don't have zero crime that relates would end in that punishment. I don't want to see the return of the death penalty, or violent punishment, it makes us no better than the people we are locking up, might as well get the clubs out and return to living in caves.
Yes some prisoners should lose their right to vote, but not all, and thats the route we should be taking, not a blanket ban.
Re: Prisoners to get the vote
So are you saying taking another persons property that they have bothered to get off their arses and work for is ok to feed yourself, but not for pleasure?
Sorry - no way. Theft is theft. God knows this government gives enough handouts to those in need. Nobody, ABSOLUTELY NOBODY in this country can claim they can't afford to feed themselves. Those countries where they do that, the people in question can't even afford bread and water. You're telling me there are people here like that? Sorry, no way. Certainly not unless it's of their own doing. Even the homeless can get a cheap and basic meal if they need to, providing they can show they are not 'using'.
Those families with to many mouths to feed should ahve thought of that before they 'had kids to get a flat and benefits' and then spend it all on booze and drugs. Being engaged to a teacher, my eyes have opened up to the so called poverty of these families.
Anybody who says they can't get a job is talking nonsense. What they mean is they can't find work doing what they want. If they are that desperate, Mcdonalds in every town and city is always hiring staff. Maybe if we took some of those jobs that the foreighers are prepared to do, while our council estates (not just those before I get accused of being a snob!) and towns are full of lazy incompetents, it might encourage the illegal immigrants to 'seek alternative accomodation'.
When I was out of work, I took a job as a bin man, worked in fast food restaurants. Anything so that I could hold my head up and say 'I work for my money' and the ONLY time I claimed benefits was in the month between being made redundant and finding somewhere to work as it was right at the start of January.
This country is going down the pan. Waiting until I can afford it, then I'm off to oz where they have the right attitudes and don't live in fear of offending people in the pursuit of what's right and fair.
Re: Prisoners to get the vote
SF I'm not talking about people who claim to be living in poverty because they can't afford a new X-box for their kids, but to say that no one in this country lives below the poverty line is just absurd. Yup the homeless can get a cheap and basic meal, if they rely on charities, and voluntary organisations, which are all suffering funding cuts as well.
Since being signed back to work I have been offered a few jobs, and had to turn each one of them down. They pay less than I get on benefits, and I struggle on that, when I went to the job centre to ask if there was any help they could offer, I was told nope as I would be earning to much. I've asked at the local supermarkets, fast food restaurants all they have is part time work, and once again I would be worse off.
I would love to go back to work, but what's the point if after the first month I would be £200 down? or the month after that when I would be £400 down, will my landlord be happy about me missing a months rent every 3 months to keep my head above water? The jobs that pay enough, well I've not heard back from most of them, and the ones I have heard back from are not interested, most companies aren't when you have been out of work for a few years due to a health problem, if you can find me a solution to that problem I would love to hear it.
Not everyone who is on benefits with kids and a flat started out that way, I agree that those people who have low incomes or on benefits should have the common sense NOT to start having loads of kids or spend it all on booze or drugs, but to tar everyone with the same 'chav' brush is a little blinkered to say the least.
Re: Prisoners to get the vote
In my opinion any one convicted of a crime should loose their rights to vote.
Re: Prisoners to get the vote
Quote:
Originally Posted by swarwick
I would love to go back to work, but what's the point if after the first month I would be £200 down?
The point is, for me anyway (and I had to do exactly that!) that I kept my pride and could say I worked for what I had, even if it was less than benefits. I can live on £15 a week if I need to. That's what Asda smartprice and Tesco value is for.
I don't NEED my motorbike, I don't NEED my tele, I don't NEED most of the things I own that cost money to have or run. I NEED food, water and a warm place to sleep. We have become so used to living with our luxuries, we have forgotten what it's like to ever actually NEED something.
Speak to people who teach, or some of the families that I speak to doing my fostering training etc, or some of the kids my mum fostered. Then you'll know what it's like to need.
You can live easily on basic wage - millions do every day. They just have to forfeit some of lifes little luxuries until they can afford them again.
I'm not pointing any fingers, and am aware my views may be taken as aggressive. No intent to offend. But the other night we were all the pub drinking and eating. If you were really poor Hunar, you couldn't afford to do that.
We, as people, have lost the sense of pride that comes with having a job and working for what you have, no matter how small or no matter how much we'd be better off on benefits. Sorry, that's not for me.
Re: Prisoners to get the vote
Quote:
Originally Posted by silly_simon
Personally Chris I think they shouldn't be allowed :(
In my opinion by the nature of how they became prisoners was there choice and therefore they shouldnt have the any rights as far as this goes.
Thats my own personal view and as such should not be taken as an attack on anyone [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
Couldn't have put it better myself.
Re: Prisoners to get the vote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squashed_Fly
[quote author=swarwick link=1288979633/32#32 date=1297428400]
I would love to go back to work, but what's the point if after the first month I would be £200 down?
The point is, for me anyway (and I had to do exactly that!) that I kept my pride and could say I worked for what I had, even if it was less than benefits. I can live on £15 a week if I need to. That's what Asda smartprice and Tesco value is for.
I don't NEED my motorbike, I don't NEED my tele, I don't NEED most of the things I own that cost money to have or run. I NEED food, water and a warm place to sleep. We have become so used to living with our luxuries, we have forgotten what it's like to ever actually NEED something.
Speak to people who teach, or some of the families that I speak to doing my fostering training etc, or some of the kids my mum fostered. Then you'll know what it's like to need.
You can live easily on basic wage - millions do every day. They just have to forfeit some of lifes little luxuries until they can afford them again.
I'm not pointing any fingers, and am aware my views may be taken as aggressive. No intent to offend. But the other night we were all the pub drinking and eating. If you were really poor Hunar, you couldn't afford to do that.
We, as people, have lost the sense of pride that comes with having a job and working for what you have, no matter how small or no matter how much we'd be better off on benefits. Sorry, that's not for me.[/quote]
+1 - well put. :)
Re: Prisoners to get the vote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squashed_Fly
[quote author=redken1 Unfortunately, "The lock em up and throw away the key" mentality just don't work. Our prisons are bursting at the seams.
No they're not. Not at all. There aren't enough rooms for them all, and some have to share, but if we gave them all a 6x4 cell with a blanket and a bucket, we would have plenty of room. Playstations, Xboxes???? Do me a favour.
SF, I will always stand corrected, but please allow me to offer up the official statistics relating to the UK prison population in an attempt to substantiate the point I was making.
England and Wales have the highest per capita prison population in Western Europe – 148 people per 100,000 which equates to a 112.7 per cent jail occupancy level.
As a matter of interest, the prison rates in the USA are the world’s highest at 724 people per 100,000, in a country where capital punishment exists.
Re: Prisoners to get the vote
Sod the vote take the TV's and playstations away.
Treated better than the old folk >:(
Re: Prisoners to get the vote
SF - Sorry for my late reply I had a busy weekend.
I'm glad you had your pride, and I just love the way you seem to use that to judge people who are on benefits as being less important than you, or have I misunderstood that?
I don't disagree that there are people who have loads of kids to get more benefit money, or play the system in other ways, what I am saying is that they are not in the majority, they are certainly not a small minority, but to tar everyone with the same brush is a bit 'daily mail' isn't it?
I have worked pretty much constantly since I left school at 16, in that time I have worked in burger vans, rubbish dumps, cleaning toilets, washing pots and pans in kitchens while being bellowed at by the head chef (they don't like it when you bellow back by the way), fast food delivery, barman (not just at the PB), warehouse and production line, hospital porter, call centers, helpdesks, Network Admin for Oxford Uni and run my own IT business, then I had to watch my business collapse when I became ill, not sure how proud I felt at the time, I think it was more despair than pride to be honest.
Now, according to your pride, I should give up my bike, my computer, my x-box, decent food, and everything else because I am on benefits? I could argue that after seeing over a grand a month (on a couple of occassions over 2 grand) of my wages going to the government in NI and TAX, I am only taking out what I put in, but that's not how it works, I didn't pay TAX as a sort of insurance politcy, I paid TAX so that those less fortunate than myself had the help they need, and so we had street lights, Police, bin collections and all the other services we enjoy because of TAX.
I also apologise if spending a night at the H&C with my friends offends you as a taxpayer, I never said I was poor, or live below the poverty line, but I wouldn't deny the vast majority of people a night out. I had 1 burger with chips and two cups of tea, which I think came to the grand total of about £6.50, hardly pushing the boat out is it, and it's not like I go to the H&C every week, that was my first visit. I do go to the Polebarn every Friday (or as many as I can manage) but I work behind the bar, and the reason for that is twofold, firstly (and the main reason) is that it gives Liam and Tash as much of a night off as possible, and it also gives me a sense of giving something back to the people who basically pay my benefit. I LOVE working behind the bar at the PB on a Friday night, it's the highlight of the week for me, I get a great sense of enjoyment, satisfaction and a fair amount of pride from it, I believe that Liam and Tash also appreciate it. Secondly (and I still feel cheeky for doing it), I realised that I couldn't afford to travel to trowbridge every week and pay for a meal and drinks, but I wanted to spend an evening with my friends, so I asked Liam if he would be happy if I worked behind the bar in exchange for a free meal and free drinks (I'm tee-total, so pretty much a few cups of tea and the occasional coke), and then he and Tash could have the night off (well they still take care of the food, which is probably a good thing, I don't think my cooking skill is anywhere near Tash's), luckily for me he accepted.
I 'make do' with what I get, it's not a lot, but then I don't think it should be, in fact with the cuts I am now having to pay more money to 'top up' my rent as i don't get it all paid for. It was £25 a month, now I have to find £70, I'm not happy about it, will make things very difficult for me, but as the people who pay for me are also facing massive cuts, I'm not complaining about it, we're all in it together, so I don't think it's wrong I take a drop in income as well. I'm fully behind the idea of getting people on benefits to work for the money they get, I don't think they should be made to clean the streets, but they should be made to give something back, especially if they have never put into the kitty, I think they should be made to work for local charities myself, rather than take paid employent away from others. I have been round my local park / play area clearing litter, just a few hours a month nothing major, before being told to stop. Aparently I need a license to carry waste, hi-vis and other safety equipment and simply putting it in one of the bins provided at the park leaves me open to prosecution for fly tipping, unreal isn't it.
Maybe you're right, I should take a low paid job, leave myself between £150 and £300 a month worse off, find myself i the position I can't pay my rent and end up on the street with my stuff in box's and bags, be forced to give up all the suff I worked for, eat crap food, and sit in a bedsit for all my spare time as I can't afford to go out, just to satisfy your point of view. Luckily for me I live in a society where that doesn't happen, and thats where my pride lies, knowing that when I need help it's there for me, and I appreciate that and am thankful for it. Hopefully 2011 will be a better year and all of those rejection letters will stop and someone will offer me a job I can afford to take. What astounds me is that being on benefits is better than being in work for a lot of people, I think that's the major problem.
If my claiming benefits offends you, I will be more than happy to return the 0.001p a year I cost you as a taxpayer, just let me know who to make the cheque payable to, but please don't tar me with the same 'lazy incompetents' brush.
