We need a revolution

You are right JayJay, despite the biggest economic boom in UK history under New Labour the gap between the rich and poor widened. Sadly, the economic wealth of the boom years did not filter down to the disadvantaged and poor. Record numbers of homeless, record numbers of pensioners dying from cold related illness etc etc. The right wing media propaganda appears to have succeeded in convincing many people that our economic woes were caused by benefit recipients and/or asylum seekers. Kick the vulnerable and poor because they are easy targets. A bit more difficult for the government of the day to go after the rich club tax dodgers or unscrupulous bankers (which costs the country fifty fold more in lost revenue). Who is funding the political parties? Come the revolution I'll be one of the flag bearers.

This housing benefits cap is an ethnic cleansing of types, drive the poor from the cities into ghettos in the outskirts. Leave the once poor areas for the rich to develop, for their rich cronies to buy. Hitler/Thatcher/Cameron, all the same.
One of my personal favourite quotes:-
Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.
John Stuart Mill

The gap between rich and poor has widened but certainly not in the way you lot claim. The rich are getting richer but so are the poor.
Thing that years ago were seen as luxury items are now the norm. Average people now have the opportunity to excel in fields that before were not available to them.

As for the rash statements about record numbers of deaths due to the cold, that is just not true. It's a well know fact that people are living longer. More old people = more deaths of old people. Cold related illnesses covers a wide spectrum.

As for the views on Tories I only have one thing to say:
"LORD Prescott!"

Shall we all start talking about religion now as I think the politcal debate is getting a bit heated.
We will have to agree to disagree. Those who voted labour should be put up against a wall deported or shot and those who voted Tory thank you for giving this county a chance. ;D

Only joking I think we should all move on from this

Kev I think that's a very good idea. This is a bikers forum after all. They always say you should never talk politics or religion.

DaytonaDog - thanks for the qualification which I read much more happily. I havn't seen the report you quote but would like to if you can remember it's source I think it could be an educational read.
[smiley=thumbsup.gif]

NOT A POLITICAL STATEMENT IN ANY WAY

So winter mortality rates simply aren't true, eh?
So I guess this lot have got it all wrong, then......

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=574

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Originally Posted by DaytonaDog

Kev I think that's a very good idea. This is a bikers forum after all. They always say you should never talk politics or religion.

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My original post on this thread was a tongue in cheek submission to express my anger at Wayne Rooney's new contract at a time when most of us are pulling our belts in. It was not intended to be political in the wider sense. Although I am calm I do accept that the debate has become a bit heated and perhaps it is time to move on.

Like most if not all of the members on this site I have a real passion for bikes. It's so enjoyable to chat with like minded people about bikes, but what really appeals to me about this site is that I can also chat about other topics in the non-bike section. And when the mood arises I can engage in a bit of banter on the muppet forum. In my personal view the best biking site by a country mile.

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Originally Posted by monday21

[quote author=DaytonaDog link=1287875218/30#44 date=1288269893]Kev I think that's a very good idea. This is a bikers forum after all. They always say you should never talk politics or religion.

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My original post on this thread was a tongue in cheek submission to express my anger at Wayne Rooney's new contract at a time when most of us are pulling our belts in. It was not intended to be political in the wider sense. Although I am calm I do accept that the debate has become a bit heated and perhaps it is time to move on.

Like most if not all of the members on this site I have a real passion for bikes. It's so enjoyable to chat with like minded people about bikes, but what really appeals to me about this site is that I can also chat about other topics in the non-bike section. And when the mood arises I can engage in a bit of banter on the muppet forum. In my personal view the best biking site by a country mile.[/quote]
Something we definitely agree on! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

how did you do that bold print?

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Originally Posted by monday21

how did you do that bold print?

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start a reply and then the text you want to be bold (either in your own text or in the quote) put these either side. There is also the option in the toolbar above the posting box (if that makes sense?)- its a capital B.

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Originally Posted by Thorkill_The_Tall

NOT A POLITICAL STATEMENT IN ANY WAY

So winter mortality rates simply aren't true, eh?
So I guess this lot have got it all wrong, then......

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=574

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No the stats are right, it's you that's wrong.
Redken said we are seeing RECORD numbers of deaths due to the cold and as your graph shows the current death rates are NOT at record highs.
If you're going to post statistics it's a good idea to make sure they back up your arguement rather than disprove it. Also don't pick an argument with the boyfriend of the woman who provides the government with these statistics for the NHS.

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Originally Posted by pilninggas

[quote author=monday21 link=1287875218/45#49 date=1288290503]how did you do that bold print?

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start a reply and then the text you want to be bold (either in your own text or in the quote) put these either side. There is also the option in the toolbar above the posting box (if that makes sense?)- its a capital B.[/quote]

Oh got you I have been using the quick reply box. Cheers

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Originally Posted by dan_geoghegan

[quote author=Thorkill_The_Tall link=1287875218/45#46 date=1288289604]NOT A POLITICAL STATEMENT IN ANY WAY

So winter mortality rates simply aren't true, eh?
So I guess this lot have got it all wrong, then......

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=574

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No the stats are right, it's you that's wrong.
Redken said we are seeing RECORD numbers of deaths due to the cold and as your graph shows the current death rates are NOT at record highs.
If you're going to post statistics it's a good idea to make sure they back up your arguement rather than disprove it. Also don't pick an argument with the boyfriend of the woman who provides the government with these statistics for the NHS.[/quote]

Wiltshire Builders, if I have made a mistake I apologise - was 99/2000 not a record high?

Political discussion is good - why avoid it - this is the NON bike heading after all!
It shows far more intelligence to be able to share facts and views than to avoid it. Only by having open minds to discussion and evidence do we learn. iF our forbears had not followed this principle we would still be waiting to invent the wheel.
The dumb thing is to be in a prejudiced, unimformed position refusing to listen to either fact or argument. Therein lies the truth of the maxim that those who do not learn by history are destined to re-live it

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Originally Posted by dan_geoghegan

[quote author=Thorkill_The_Tall link=1287875218/45#46 date=1288289604]NOT A POLITICAL STATEMENT IN ANY WAY

So winter mortality rates simply aren't true, eh?
So I guess this lot have got it all wrong, then......

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=574

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No the stats are right, it's you that's wrong.
Redken said we are seeing RECORD numbers of deaths due to the cold and as your graph shows the current death rates are NOT at record highs.
If you're going to post statistics it's a good idea to make sure they back up your arguement rather than disprove it. Also don't pick an argument with the boyfriend of the woman who provides the government with these statistics for the NHS.[/quote]

So last winter was not the record year for additional winter deaths - I'm sure it was worse in Dickensian days! But the graph clearly shows it was the worst in the last 10 years - so your point is.....?
All old people are warm enough?

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Originally Posted by JAYJAY

Political discussion is good - why avoid it - this is the NON bike heading after all!
It shows far more intelligence to be able to share facts and views than to avoid it. Only by having open minds to discussion and evidence do we learn. iF our forbears had not followed this principle we would still be waiting to invent the wheel.
The dumb thing is to be in a prejudiced, unimformed position refusing to listen to either fact or argument. Therein lies the truth of the maxim that those who do not learn by history are destined to re-live it

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JayJay - A very good point, well made.

I'm going to opt out for the time being due to my own shortcomings in being able to convey my thoughts via the written word. However i will still enjoy reading the thoughts and opinions of others. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

ok - how about a bit of political trivia?

Only un-googled answer before midnight counted!

During the '70s we had a period of enforced 50 mph speed limit on motorways - all drivers issued with petrol ration coupons, factories offices shops and other businesses reduced to a 3 day working week - television ended at 10.00 p.m.

Who was the Prime Minister
a. Harold Wilson
b. James Calaghan
c. Edward Heath
d. Margaret Thatcher

No Prizes - ok maybe a pint or coffee tomorrow for the first correct!

Ted Heath

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Originally Posted by dan_geoghegan

[quote author=Thorkill_The_Tall link=1287875218/45#46 date=1288289604]NOT A POLITICAL STATEMENT IN ANY WAY

So winter mortality rates simply aren't true, eh?
So I guess this lot have got it all wrong, then......

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=574

---

No the stats are right, it's you that's wrong.
Redken said we are seeing RECORD numbers of deaths due to the cold and as your graph shows the current death rates are NOT at record highs.
If you're going to post statistics it's a good idea to make sure they back up your arguement rather than disprove it.[/quote]

Please read my original post more carefully.

The text accompanying the graph states:

The elderly population experiences the greatest increase in deaths each winter. In the winter of 2008/09 there were 29,400 more deaths among those aged 75 and over, compared with levels in the non-winter period. In contrast, there were 7,300 excess winter deaths among those under the age of 75.

Irrespective of what Redken may have said, my original comment concerned the fact that winter mortality rates for the elderly are in excess of the rate for the rest of the year. This seems to be true for all the sample years, not just for the year given in this instance.
I don't see how I have disproved anything.

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Also don't pick an argument with the boyfriend of the woman who provides the government with these statistics for the NHS.

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I hadn't realised I had.
Please offer my apologies when you see him.

As long as you lot keep the arguments on this thread and don't get personal I see no problem with it.

The rest of us can read or not read it as we choose. I personally read it but keep my thoughts to myself.

I would also prefer not to listen to too much of it in a pub, but I can always find someone else to talk to I'm sure! ;)

Nothing like a bit of healthy discussion [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

BB

I will start another thread with another discussion point ;)

Healthy debate, is just that, healthy. I try not to be personal, and if some of my comments are found to be insulting to some, then i personally apologise. I don't mention politics hardly ever in real life, so i find it refreshing to have a debate online with people. Let's not censor this thread and let's not be personal, i'm sure a lot of you know each other offline, and i'm sure over time you may get to know me. For the record i don't wear dungarees, or live in a teepee, i eat lots of red meat, and don't smoke drugs ;)

My original post:

As for the rash statements about record numbers of deaths due to the cold, that is just not true. It's a well know fact that people are living longer. More old people = more deaths of old people. Cold related illnesses covers a wide spectrum.

Thorkill's response:

So winter mortality rates simply aren't true, eh?
So I guess this lot have got it all wrong, then......

As you can see at no point did I say that winter mortality rates aren't true I said they aren't at a record high as the graph clearly shows. That is the only point I wanted to make and thought it was clear enough. I think you just read what you wanted.

Jayjay I think you might have your graph upside down as it certainly doesn't show that last year was a record high for winter deaths. I'm deffinately not saying any increase is ok.

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Originally Posted by dan_geoghegan

My original post:

As for the rash statements about record numbers of deaths due to the cold, that is just not true. It's a well know fact that people are living longer. More old people = more deaths of old people. Cold related illnesses covers a wide spectrum.

Thorkill's response:

So winter mortality rates simply aren't true, eh?
So I guess this lot have got it all wrong, then......

As you can see at no point did I say that winter mortality rates aren't true I said they aren't at a record high as the graph clearly shows. That is the only point I wanted to make and thought it was clear enough. I think you just read what you wanted.

Wiltshire builders, (sorry I don't know your first name)

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I apologise again for my mistake. However, in the context of my argument I peronally believe thousands of such deaths in one of the world's richest economies is a national scandal.

On that 'cold' subject did you guys notice that the main gas suppliers are about to hike prices by around 10% :o Now that could have some serious consequences on elderly people with low or static incomes if they heat/cook with gas. The gummint should force these suppliers to charge a minimum to any elderly persons who are struggling.

[/quote]
I apologise again for my mistake. However, in the context of my argument I peronally believe thousands of such deaths in one of the world's richest economies is a national scandal. [/quote]

You are absolutely right. Heating shouldn't be seen as a luxury. The energy companies seem to able to act with impunity. If they ever are brought to account it's by way of a fine which in turn is passed onto the public. It's very difficult to voice your displeasure these days without falling foul of any of the new laws brought in to silence the masses.
Like Col said, it's only going to get worse.

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Originally Posted by dan_geoghegan

My original post:


Jayjay I think you might have your graph upside down as it certainly doesn't show that last year was a record high for winter deaths. I'm deffinately not saying any increase is ok.

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Please read my post - I said the worst in 10 years not a record - 10 years ealier was clearly higher - on a right way up graph.

"Gordon Bennett" This thread is MISERABLE and GLOOMY .. Cheer up you lot for goodness sakes .. Most of you all have Great bikes on the road , money in your pockets !! Im struggling to get my Trike on the road on Minimum wage but im still happy and excited about when it is finally on the road !! NOW SNAP OUT OF IT .. LOL :D ;D 8-) 8-)

Sorry Nick - Although I applaude your outlook on life - after all we are here for a good time not a long time - we wont solve the problem of thousands of pensioners having to make the decision between 'heat' or 'eat' by burying our heads in the sand and pretending is isn't so.

I have only 4 years to go til my company throws me on the scrap heap and I start to pull my state pension - currently less than £98 per week. I started work at 15 and will have worked, and payed for my state pension, for 50 years. Less than £100 per week for that is wrong, a social injustice and a damned insult.

Aside from that - good luck with the bike - I hope we see you on the road with it soon [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

By the way, as Adante will no doubt confirm - Jewish John (JAYJAY) rareley has any spare cash - my bank manager can back that up too!

The UK has no appetite for revolution.

The majority are all too happy moaning about things, but can't really be bothered to do anything about it.

As long as we have the right to free speach, protest and vote - why revolt?

http://mercuriuspoliticus.files.word...=387&h=365

But, if we were to lose those rights............................................ ...

http://moviesmedia.ign.com/movies/im...1085724795.jpg

People should not be afraid of their governments, governments should be afraid of their people. Brilliant film.

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I peronally believe thousands of such deaths in one of the world's richest economies is a national scandal.

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I'm new to this debate, but don't elderly people get quite a reasonable winter fuel allowance these days?

I suspect some of it is not down to the actual fuel money.
It's perhaps down to their frugal attittude or perhaps that they are not well looked after enough (for example their flat could be draughty).

I make sure my in-laws in their 80s get everything they are entitled to (attendance allowance, carers allwances, pension credit, council tax benefit, winter fuel allowance etc.) but I think there are some elderly people who have no help and no-one to look out for them.

I don't think it's simply a question of money.
There are grants for insulation, pension credit, winter fuel allowance, but not all elderly people are able to access the help they need.
I think it's a more complicated issue.

Same for most of the folks out on the streets.
There is help available but you need a degree to fill out some of the forms and some people fall through the safety net.

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Originally Posted by Ducatista

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I peronally believe thousands of such deaths in one of the world's richest economies is a national scandal.

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I'm new to this debate, but don't elderly people get quite a reasonable winter fuel allowance these days?

I suspect some of it is not down to the actual fuel money.
It's perhaps down to their frugal attittude or perhaps that they are not well looked after enough (for example their flat could be draughty).

I make sure my in-laws in their 80s get everything they are entitled to (attendance allowance, carers allwances, pension credit, council tax benefit, winter fuel allowance etc.) but I think there are some elderly people who have no help and no-one to look out for them.

I don't think it's simply a question of money.
There are grants for insulation, pension credit, winter fuel allowance, but not all elderly people are able to access the help they need.
I think it's a more complicated issue.

Same for most of the folks out on the streets.
There is help available but you need a degree to fill out some of the forms and some people fall through the safety net.

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Yes Ducatista there is Loads of help out there if people would use the brain god gave them . Yes the elderly Do get a generous heating allowance - my mother recieves it Plus if she wanted she could have upgraded her loft insulation and door seals etc.
8-)

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Originally Posted by JAYJAY

Sorry Nick - Although I applaude your outlook on life - after all we are here for a good time not a long time - we wont solve the problem of thousands of pensioners having to make the decision between 'heat' or 'eat' by burying our heads in the sand and pretending is isn't so.

I have only 4 years to go til my company throws me on the scrap heap and I start to pull my state pension - currently less than £98 per week. I started work at 15 and will have worked, and payed for my state pension, for 50 years. Less than £100 per week for that is wrong, a social injustice and a damned insult.

Aside from that - good luck with the bike - I hope we see you on the road with it soon [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

By the way, as Adante will no doubt confirm - Jewish John (JAYJAY) rareley has any spare cash - my bank manager can back that up too!

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You just Totally contradicted yourself JAYJAY lol .. you say applaud my outlook but you "carry on moaning" Yes we are here for a good time and not a long time , so STOP all this whining and live your life .. Manager / Moderator .. Please Please Please DELETE this miserable T

Thread ... lol .. god knows what happened there 8-)

Nick i wholeheartedly do not applaud your outlook, if we all went about our business never questioning the governments, we would be rode rough-shod over. If you don't like the thread, then don't comment, stop advocating cencorship.

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Originally Posted by Mitch9128

Nick i wholeheartedly do not applaud your outlook, if we all went about our business never questioning the governments, we would be rode rough-shod over. If you don't like the thread, then don't comment, stop advocating cencorship.

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Yes Nick with respect, if I do not wish to view or comment on a particular topic/thread then I don't. Just because I don't agree with another member(s) post(s) I am not going to call on the management team to remove it. As long as folk don't get personal free speech should remain. If we go down the road of censorship this site will be dead in the water.

Not once have i mentioned Censorship .. all iam saying is Chill out and Lighten up .. it seems all British people do is moan about one thing or another .. if it aint the wheather is Politics lol .. Nuff said .. enjoy your d :Pepressing banter

...... Has gone off to look for a HAPPY THREAD !!