* The Scale of the Universe

My take on things after a lifetime of trying to work out WTF I'm doing here is that there is no god, religions are just BS used to control people. ie if you don't do as it says in this book you will go to hell and spend the rest of eternity burning and having red hot pokers shoved up your arse by some big red horny chap, but remember god loves you. Yea right :-/

We are co-creators, we create the world around us, if people focus on war the there will be war. TPTB know this and use the media amongst other things to direct our minds into the directions they want to achieve for their benefit not ours.

Like I said I don't believe in god but you're free to do so if it suits you.
See you on the other side 8-)

I don't believe in God, but I do believe in aliens - I keep telling everyone Stonehenge is just an old landing site ;D ;D

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Originally Posted by smellygerm

[quote author=Squashed_Fly link=1331718381/14#14 date=1331737959]

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my colossus doesn't make me weird :P
[/quote]

agreed...its your weirdness that makes you weird! :D

don't really believe in god and science has its place alongside religion but i do believe in the devil... :-/

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Originally Posted by BMWGraeme

I don't believe in God, but I do believe in aliens - I keep telling everyone Stonehenge is just an old landing site ;D ;D

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Works for me :)

I think there may be millions of closet atheists out there who are in denial to protect their insurance policies. “Hedging their bets” just in case the Big Man (Woman for the PC brigade) does exist and gives them a raw deal when their time comes.

In my personal opinion capitalism is a far greater evil and threat to man’s existence than religion.

Indoctrination of capitalism begins at pre-school age with targeted advertising during children’s hour and continues throughout our childhood and into adulthood.

I like to imagine that an intelligent compassionate life-form does exist somewhere in the universe. What would they make of planet earth?

"These humans spend billions on weapons to kill each other and a pittance in comparison on preventing starvation and suffering of their own kind.” They worship at the altar of profit whilst their brothers and sisters perish, but they believe the capitalist Gods will be their saviours.”

I’ve seen the light. :P

;D ;D God..gods ?? :-?

Have you ever heard of Pascal's Wager ?

If you are interested to find out just Google it ;)

Pascal was a wise man it would seem.

people who don't believe in any form of god, quote science like it's all fact - someone even mentioned that persistent idiot Richard Dawkins. How many things can we do now, that at some point in history, science said we couldn't? Surely that alone disproves the science of FACT? Fact simply means, what we know right now, based on the number of outcomes we have seen so far in history. The second we find a way to get a new outcome, it blows previous facts, and theories out of the water...

Are we really so arrogant, to belive that our generation has all the answers and can't be proved wrong? That there will be no new discoveries in the future that will rock the foundations of what we thing on certain subjects?

I think Matt Damon had it right in Dogma, when he said people should never have beliefs, they should have ideas. An idea can be changed, shaped & moulded with time and experience. Beliefs, tend to be set in stone, and people stick to them so rigidly, they are prepared to lay down theirs, and other peoples lives to protect them.

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Originally Posted by Squashed_Fly

Pascal was a wise man it would seem.

people who don't believe in any form of god, quote science like it's all fact - someone even mentioned that persistent idiot Richard Dawkins. How many things can we do now, that at some point in history, science said we couldn't? Surely that alone disproves the science of FACT? Fact simply means, what we know right now, based on the number of outcomes we have seen so far in history. The second we find a way to get a new outcome, it blows previous facts, and theories out of the water...

Are we really so arrogant, to belive that our generation has all the answers and can't be proved wrong? That there will be no new discoveries in the future that will rock the foundations of what we thing on certain subjects?

I think Matt Damon had it right in Dogma, when he said people should never have beliefs, they should have ideas. An idea can be changed, shaped & moulded with time and experience. Beliefs, tend to be set in stone, and people stick to them so rigidly, they are prepared to lay down theirs, and other peoples lives to protect them.

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You mock science, then quote Matt Damon mocking faith, you make no sense at all.

I didn't mock science, neither does MD mock faith. I just said science is as uncertain as religion. Science is only as good as the last set of results... We're constantly finding ways to do things previously thought impossible in science.

Not really sure how having ideas about God that can be changed with what you find out about him, is any less of a show of faith than blindly believing what's in an old book written centuries ago. Faith is about what you experience of God. You have to take the comments Matt Damons character says in context of the rest of the film. But I just like the idea that if more peoples faith was based on their own relationships with God, and not on what they interpret from their holy books, then there would be far fewer wars fought in the name of religion.

Man has an inability to not fight over something. Religion, football, love etc. Anything that evokes strong emotions brings out mens need to fight for something. Religion is blamed on lots of wars, and rightly so. But then football is apparently the reason the many hooligans fight. It's all bollocks - men just aren't happy (in the main) unless they are fighting for something. It's in our nature - we are all animals underneath this civillised exterior...

" I didn't mock science, neither does MD mock faith. I just said science is as uncertain as religion. Science is only as good as the last set of results... We're constantly finding ways to do things previously thought impossible in science."

That is the beauty of scientific theories, they evolve, beliefs or faiths in sky fairies don't.

How old do you think the earth is SF? Billions of years, evolution is a theory, which is now fact, you can't dispute it, but there is no mention of it in your book? God didn't create ****, there is no god, he created man in his own image, but thought he'd feck around with dinosaurs first, then fish, then mammals, then neanderthals etc etc It's a book written 2000 years ago, by people who knew no better, we know a lot better now.

Which God do you believe in anyway? Not the Islamic god, or the jewish god, or the bhuddist god, or the hindu god etc i'll wager?

"We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."

If you're asking me personally, I believe that they are all the same God. And I do believe in evolution. I don't know all the ins and outs of how and why are here, nor do I believe that god just created man and we were here from the start. The world in 7 days was mans way of making sense of what he didn't understand back then. That's why I dont take the bible literally word for word.

But the idea of there being something that's bigger than all of us, and living our lives in way not to cause suffering to others etc, is something I do take from it. Like I said at the start, it's personal to everyone.

Too many people believe in something, for it to be just be imaginary 'sky fairies' in my opinion. But I respect other peoples opinions, even if I dont agree wth all of them. I'm jus careful about quoting theories, no matter how probable, as facts when you never know if we might find something out tomorrow, that we don't know today, that disproves it...

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

Just because lot's of people believe in gods, it doesn't follow that educated people should, it's sheep mentality. A quick look around the world shows where religion is most prevalent, middle age backwaters and 3rd world countries with no education, oh and America.

Anyway, here's something we should try, you have a problem with science, let's test gravity? You jump out of a 20th floor window, and we'll discuss the theory of gravity afterwards :D

I think SF has a very good point here.
It's all too easy to mock religion and pick holes in it (and there are a lot of holes in it) but if you question science you're seen as being ignorant.

We've barely scratched the surface of the "rules" or the universe.
I think it's ignorant the think we've got all the answers.

Having said that I seriously doubt that we're going to suddenly discover that the Bible was real.

Religion is a comfort thing born out of Man's need for answers to the unexplainable.

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Originally Posted by Mitch9128

" but thought he'd feck around with dinosaurs first, then fish,

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Fish were here before dinosaurs ;)

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Originally Posted by Mitch9128

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

Just because lot's of people believe in gods, it doesn't follow that educated people should, it's sheep mentality. A quick look around the world shows where religion is most prevalent, middle age backwaters and 3rd world countries with no education, oh and America.

Anyway, here's something we should try, you have a problem with science, let's test gravity? You jump out of a 20th floor window, and we'll discuss the theory of gravity afterwards :D

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I must say this is as bigoted view as held by the religious people you critisise. We are all people of this planet, we should all learn to live together as one and accept our differences in physical appearance, belief and sexuality. This kind of agressive "I'm right" approach does nothing to further human endevour, rather holds it back.

It is not a religion which determines a person's outlook, it is the person's own thoughts which determine this.

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Originally Posted by Rossio

[quote author=Mitch9128 link=1331718381/49#49 date=1331891281]" but thought he'd feck around with dinosaurs first, then fish,

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Fish were here before dinosaurs ;)[/quote]


They weren't fish, merely water borne dinosaurs ::)

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Originally Posted by Jon_W

[quote author=Mitch9128 link=1331718381/51#51 date=1331898212]"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

Just because lot's of people believe in gods, it doesn't follow that educated people should, it's sheep mentality. A quick look around the world shows where religion is most prevalent, middle age backwaters and 3rd world countries with no education, oh and America.

Anyway, here's something we should try, you have a problem with science, let's test gravity? You jump out of a 20th floor window, and we'll discuss the theory of gravity afterwards :D

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I must say this is as bigoted view as held by the religious people you critisise. We are all people of this planet, we should all learn to live together as one and accept our differences in physical appearance, belief and sexuality. This kind of agressive "I'm right" approach does nothing to further human endevour, rather holds it back.

It is not a religion which determines a person's outlook, it is the person's own thoughts which determine this.[/quote]

Physical appearance, belief and sexuality are all fine with me, belief in fictional characters, invented thousands of years ago, is pushing the boundaries. Read what SF wrote again, it is typical of the god botherers attitude to science, trying to hold progress back. Where what i have wrote is bigoted?

People believe in what people believe. If Sf does not believe in evolution or to believe in god then that is his choice. I'd say that any extreme attitude holds progress back, not just the attitude of the religious.

You seem to forget that the anglican church embraced Darwin's theories and that the firs man to seriously study dinosaurs (William Buckland) was a minister of the church.

It is the open minded who progress humanity and the close minded who hold it back.

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Originally Posted by Jon_W

People believe in what people believe. If Sf does not believe in evolution or to believe in god then that is his choice. I'd say that any extreme attitude holds progress back, not just the attitude of the religious.

You seem to forget that the anglican church embraced Darwin's theories and that the firs man to seriously study dinosaurs (William Buckland) was a minister of the church.

It is the open minded who progress humanity and the close minded who hold it back.

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You seem to be trying to stop me questioning SF's belief's, but not trying to stop SF questioning my faith in science? Why is that?

William Buckland studied dinosaurs, yes, and?

"We should be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brain falls out."

Still waiting for you to validate your claim i am bigoted?

I give up. SF is not the one on the attack. If he was, I would question him.

You prove my point with every post you make on this subject. You views on religion will never change. You tar all religion with the same brush and are proud to do so.

As to William buckland, he was a man of God, a minister, but was prepared to look at somthing that seriously challenged his view and use logic to come to a conclusion that was to him, amazing.

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Originally Posted by Jon_W

I give up. SF is not the one on the attack. If he was, I would question him.

You prove my point with every post you make on this subject. You views on religion will never change. You tar all religion with the same brush and are proud to do so.

As to William buckland, he was a man of God, a minister, but was prepared to look at somthing that seriously challenged his view and use logic to come to a conclusion that was to him, amazing.

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I'm an Atheist, yes of course my view on religion won't change, same as every other atheist's view on it. Stop trying to silence debate Jon, it's an open forum. What did you expect, that SF would post something and i'd convert to Islam or sumsuch? Atheist's question religion and those who support it, it's all very well SF saying he isn't religious, but he believes in God. Sorry you can't cop out like that, christianity was founded on a belief in God, and that he sent his son to earth to save us all, they go hand in hand, you can't have one without the other.

It would be so much easier if you hadn't created a religion around worshipping him.

Oh you deleted your post SF?!

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Originally Posted by Mitch9128

What did you expect, that SF would post something and i'd convert to Islam or sumsuch?

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I never tried to convert anyone to anything??? Where did that come from?

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Originally Posted by Mitch9128

it's all very well SF saying he isn't religious, but he believes in God. Sorry you can't cop out like that,

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That's not a cop out. Religion & faith are 2, VERY different things. Like most atheists, I hate religion. But I still believe in God.

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Originally Posted by Mitch9128

christianity was founded on a belief in God

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No it wasn't

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Originally Posted by Mitch9128

and that he sent his son to earth to save us all,

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Only those that believe in him....That is the foundation of Christianity.

And whether you believe in the 'sky fairies' or not, almost every part of Jesus life as told in the bible, is factual. Historians don't debate that. Was he the son of god? Who knows - I'll find out for sure when I die I guess.

You make a lot of very sweeping generalisations about the church, chritianity etc Mitch. And certain aspects of what you say may be right. But I would recommend going to lots of churches, and reading the bible for yourself before you argue either way. If you don't fully understand the bible, God, or what church is about, how can you make the statements you do about it? You should make some effort to find all of that out, and only then you can really decide for yourself.

And you may still be an atheist, but you would be one who fully understands chritianity etc, and so can the make and educated decision. I would never try and 'convert' anyone. Like I said to start with, beliefs/ideas/religions/faiths (in God and/or science) are all personal.

The Islam comment was in reply to Jon, read the context.

So you belief is in the Biblical Yahweh and his son Jesus... If you reject the book why don't you reject the god they represent?

I can identify with your emotional attachment to the Jesus character, I really do. The problem with Jesus is that the peaceful teachings of Jesus if you love him come with the flip side of eternal torture if you don't.

Like i said, It would be so much easier to separate God and religion, if you hadn't created a religion around worshiping him.

I'm not an atheist I just don't believe in god or religion.
I don't want a label I'm a free spirit.

I recall a conversation I had with another patron from my local pub – the chap in question was a keen skier. We were chatting about my VFR, when the chap said, “I can’t understand how any rational thinking person could ride a motorcycle.”

To which I replied, “That’s because you don’t understand that most people don’t always think rationally, do you when you are flying down a mountain at 60 plus mph on a couple of bits of flimsy plastic?

Does it really matter whether or not any religion is based on rationale?

Whatever "Floats you boat" is what really matters. 8-)

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Originally Posted by monday21

I recall a conversation I had with another patron from my local pub – the chap in question was a keen skier. We were chatting about my VFR, when the chap said, “I can’t understand how any rational thinking person could ride a motorcycle.”

To which I replied, “That’s because you don’t understand that most people don’t always think rationally, do you when you are flying down a mountain at 60 plus mph on a couple of bits of flimsy plastic?

Does it really matter whether or not any religion is based on rationale?

Whatever "Floats you boat" is what really matters. 8-)

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Look at the Catholic church Ken, starving Africans dying of Aids, whilst the Pope sits on his golden throne, i thought that would have caught in the back of your throat in particular?

"Many of us saw religion as harmless nonsense. Beliefs might lack all supporting evidence but, we thought, if people needed a crutch for consolation, where's the harm? September 11th changed all that. Revealed faith is not harmless nonsense, it can be lethally dangerous nonsense. Dangerous because it gives people unshakeable confidence in their own righteousness. Dangerous because it gives them false courage to kill themselves, which automatically removes normal barriers to killing others. Dangerous because it teaches enmity to others labelled only by a difference of inherited tradition. And dangerous because we have all bought into a weird respect, which uniquely protects religion from normal criticism. Let's now stop being so damned respectful!"

Not everyone who believes in God is a child molesting, African war lord sitting on a golden throne... You're using extreme examples to make your point. Every biker isn't a gun running, drug smuggling criminal. You don't judge other bikers based on hells angels, so why judge all people who believe in god by those few examples you are aware of?

Your God murders, approves of rape, condones slavery, asks that men sacrifice their sons to him. Jesus, his supposed son, lies to the masses. His book, is full of blatant contradictions, which any fool can see through.

You condone and approve of these things, yet whine when you are opposed?

Politics and religion (and football teams).... a few of the biggest causes of disagreement I know of

But even so, I am a firm believer in choice !! Luckily in this country and a few others we have a choice in which 'God', faith, religion or football team we follow.
No-one has the right to tell you that you are wrong. People that knock on my door to 'sell' me their 'God' really get my goat and I find it irritating and intrusive.
If my own 'faith' has got me this far in life and keeps me 'sane' (ish) then I shall continue the way I am.
Everyone is entitled to their views but I would find it offensive to be told I am wrong......how do they know my views are wrong and theirs are right?

By the way Mitch, God doesnt murder, approve of rape etc etc.........ordinary people do that...in His name........Its Human Beings that do all the damage to other Humans, not God, Allah or any other being that people believe in. They are following words that have been written by other Humans which have been adapted over the years..like fairy tales. ;D ;D ;D

Has anyone seen the scale of the universe thred ?
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=me2H7Ja93Wg

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Originally Posted by Tina

Politics and religion (and football teams).... a few of the biggest causes of disagreement I know of

But even so, I am a firm believer in choice !! Luckily in this country and a few others we have a choice in which 'God', faith, religion or football team we follow.
No-one has the right to tell you that you are wrong. People that knock on my door to 'sell' me their 'God' really get my goat and I find it irritating and intrusive.
If my own 'faith' has got me this far in life and keeps me 'sane' (ish) then I shall continue the way I am.
Everyone is entitled to their views but I would find it offensive to be told I am wrong......how do they know my views are wrong and theirs are right?

By the way Mitch, God doesnt murder, approve of rape etc etc.........ordinary people do that...in His name........Its Human Beings that do all the damage to other Humans, not God, Allah or any other being that people believe in. They are following words that have been written by other Humans which have been adapted over the years..like fairy tales. ;D ;D ;D

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Tina, Yes God does murder, according to the bible, his book, it's 2,476,633 people he killed, and that's just in his book!

Have a quick scan of this page http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm shocking.

Interesting thread, not 'a believer' myself, just can't seem to make the whole 'all seeing being' thing make sense, bit of a fatalist I guess. IMO all of a bit of accident, we're here in physical form for a few short years then back to base atoms, make the most of it while you're here, try not to p**s too many people off and leave your friends and family with a warm feeling when you're gone.
If I'm wrong and our 'spirit' moves to a higher plain after death I hope any higher being is broad minded enough not to let my non-beliefs in their/his/her/its existence leave them with a grudge ;D
Having said that I'm not a deep thinker on the subject (or many others ;) ) but do like to see a well thought through position clearly explained in a non-pushy manner - keep 'em coming SF

Mitch - you do have a point. The old testament God & New Testament ones seem to be very different. And there is a lot about the bible, and God, that doesn't make sense. Which why I don't believe it wholeheartedly and without question. A position that makes no sense to non believers, and, doesn't sit well with most christians either...

I just believe what I believe, and try to do no harm to anyone, and hope that in the end, it's enough... If it's not, then I will have to join you guys in the party downstairs! ;D

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Originally Posted by Squashed_Fly

Mitch - you do have a point. The old testament God & New Testament ones seem to be very different. And there is a lot about the bible, and God, that doesn't make sense. Which why I don't believe it wholeheartedly and without question. A position that makes no sense to non believers, and, doesn't sit well with most christians either...

I just believe what I believe, and try to do no harm to anyone, and hope that in the end, it's enough... If it's not, then I will have to join you guys in the party downstairs! ;D

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And don't forget SF, "The good die young." I will be the world's oldest living person then. ;) ;D

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Originally Posted by Squashed_Fly

Mitch - you do have a point. The old testament God & New Testament ones seem to be very different. And there is a lot about the bible, and God, that doesn't make sense. Which why I don't believe it wholeheartedly and without question. A position that makes no sense to non believers, and, doesn't sit well with most christians either...

I just believe what I believe, and try to do no harm to anyone, and hope that in the end, it's enough... If it's not, then I will have to join you guys in the party downstairs! ;D

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Ach, i'm not having a go at you, i can see many on here probably think that.

I do find it strange how a book like the bible, can be called gods word, yet some Christians take the bit's they want, and disregard other bits. To a non believer like me, i see the nutjobs like Fred Phelps as proper christians, and the people like you as scared of science, in so much as you want to believe science, but it's all a bit too much, so you fall back on explaining the world as Gods work. A small step, and a couple of good books, see 'The God delusion' and 'magic of reality', and you'll be onside SF :)

Gotta say I'm ****in enjoying this ;)

Always good bollocks when you bung in some religious beliefs and/or politics 8-)

'opens another tinny' :)

http://www.maximumbikes.com/forum/pu...lt/popcorn.gif

This isn't a spectator sport, pitch in, let us know if you believe in trolls/fairies/elves or eskimo's!