View Full Version : Right you clever lot ???
After yesterday's long Idle period when it wouldn't start and what I assumed was nothing more than letting it cool down for ten to fifteen minutes and all was fine , I went out for a localish ride this afternoon to Marlborough and the bike cut out out near Ogbourne ! I wasn't sitting around with the engine running , just riding with plenty of air to keep it cool . I sat again for ten minutes and she started fine and ran all the way back to Swindon until about half a mile from home and did it again , another breather and off we went again . This has never happened before in 8 years . I know there's not a lot of information here , but it was never an issue until it sat there for a prolonged period yesterday . Is it possible I've finished the spark plugs off ???
Coils craping out when they heat up? Only way to test that theory though would be with known good ones.
wheelers
14-03-16, 08:48 PM
for the un initiated... BIKE?
my guess , if the plugs have been changed could be a coil pack going down, sounds like a heat problem rather than fuel evaporation.
always the possibility of plug leads going down
Coils craping out when they heat up? Only way to test that theory though would be with known good ones.
You might be on to something there WR , nice one !!! Since reading your post , have done a bit of digging on youtube and found a guy who describes the symptoms pretty much exactly .
Is it possible that the ignition coils , having been in there for 8 years may have deteriorated further due to letting the bike sit idling for a prolonged period , thus overheating ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0HtFSyz6bk
for the un initiated... BIKE?
my guess , if the plugs have been changed could be a coil pack going down, sounds like a heat problem rather than fuel evaporation.
always the possibility of plug leads going down
Sorry Wheelers , it's a 2008 Triumph Bonneville 865 EFI .
wheelers
14-03-16, 09:34 PM
ah , Triumph..
one of my customers has a Trophy 900, tell tale sign was missing and no rev counter. had a terminal broken in the coil pulls out and pushes in, changed and its ok.
another had a speed triple, coils over heated so he ran washing machine pipe (any pipe really eg hose) from the head stock (out of sight) onto the top of the coils. cooled them down so no further problem.
tomearp
15-03-16, 10:19 AM
the described behaviour can be characteristic of an overheating coil. basics checks of the resistance of the coil's windings (as per the video) are a good start and will quickly identify a dead one. intermittent issues are of course harder to track down.
it is worth also checking the other parts on the secondary side of the coil, so any HT leads etc. (i'm not familiar with the ignition system on the bonneville) and the condition of the spark plugs. a heavily fouled/intermittently firing plug, or a high-resistance connection somewhere can create an over-voltage condition in the coil which, over time, could damage the insulation of the windings. it could be that in your case the insulation was deteriorating due to that (or age) and a period of idling caused an excessive build up of heat that has finally caused something to fail.
say, for example, it has caused a crack in the insulation of the secondary winding. it may well be that when cold the crack is closed or so narrow that resistance measurements look fine, and the engine can operate normally.
in operation the coil will heat up and the winding wire will expand, causing the crack to start to open. if you start to get arcing at this point in the circuit then clearly that is lost power that never reaches the spark plug, so you get a weaker spark.
a weaker spark does not necessarily mean the engine will immediately stop. when cruising at moderate revs the conditions within the combustion chamber are (crudely, without getting into details) more conducive to the creation of a spark, so a reduced voltage at the plug will still create a good enough spark for combustion. in this scenario the problem would most likely manifest when you idle or run at low revs.
as WR suggests it's difficult to test without having some known good coils, in which case you've likely already spent some money :S
Now this thread is exactly what makes this forum great... top advice from peeps who have the knowledge..fault finding can be a nightmare.
Hope this sorts your problem Andy.
and Andy...your recent mods on the Bonnie look superb, well impressed mate.:)
Coils craping out when they heat up? Only way to test that theory though would be with known good ones.
Well spotted that man !!! Hit the nail well and truly on the head !!! :cool: Nice one WR . Can you tell I'm in a good mood ? I hunted out the resistance values for that particular unit and how to test for duff coils , Also tested the HT resistance and they were as they should be . The primary coils were spot on but the secondary coils were reading as an open circuit with no reading at all . I think as Tomearp suggested , sitting with the engine running , the excessive heat has finished them off . Will order Up a new unit tomorrow.
http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m596/daddycool42/20160315_130642_zpsp5bzhequ.jpg
http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m596/daddycool42/20160315_144046_zpsmucipyhd.jpg
http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m596/daddycool42/20160315_150631_zpsbe2757g6.jpg
Now this thread is exactly what makes this forum great... top advice from peeps who have the knowledge..fault finding can be a nightmare.
Hope this sorts your problem Andy.
and Andy...your recent mods on the Bonnie look superb, well impressed mate.:)
Well said Toph ! :cool:, I didn't have a clue this time yesterday and with a bit of knowledge and a nod in the right direction from peeps on here ,I had a crack at something I had no prior knowledge of . It's been a fairly steep learning curve today , but well worth it , Thanks Chaps !!! :cool:
Well done boys, good teamwork there :)
Scrap all that !!! I was reading the meter wrong , :rolleyes:, but I did take the coil along to triumph for some verification , they tested it and did indeed verify that the coil was duff, so I ordered a new one . Luckily not one at their prices . Got it from Sprint manufacturing in Warminster for around a third of the cost http://www.triumphparts.gbr.cc/index.php/15/432940/ . I then took both coils to a mate who's an electrical engineer and got him to test them both , he even heated the original one up a bit to see if there was any fluctuation on the resistances but both coils were fine . So I fitted the original coil back on the bike with some new spark plugs went out for a local ride , got about 8 miles and it died , waited for 15 mins , started it up and went home . I then fitted the new ignition coil just to make sure , put the bike back together , went about 4 miles and died blah blah blah , cool down , and went home . That's my saturday . The bike starts lovely and runs like a dream , until.........................HEEEEEEEELP !!!
I now know S**T loads about ignition coils , but unfortunately that's not my problem .:confused: I suppose I have at least eliminated that from the equation ! :cool:
All's well, I just had a pork pie , cut in 'alf and both sections generously adorned with English mustard !!! I'm thinking Fuel supply ???
tomearp
19-03-16, 08:21 PM
Could be fuel supply, or fuel mixture.
Would be worth checking the condition of the plugs as that can give clues towards mixture issues. Too rich and you'll get carbon deposits which can lead to tracking over, reducing or removing the spark. Too lean and the burn temperature will increase which can cause electrode erosion or insulator cracking/failure if it exceeds the operating temperature range of the plug. There are lots of reference charts on t'internet, e.g. http://www.aa1car.com/library/reading_spark_plugs.jpg
Also worth checking the air intake system, making sure any joints are sound etc. as that can adversely affect the mixture.
On the fuel side (again not familiar with the Bonneville) if you can visually inspect the filter to make sure it's not fouled, that's a good place to start. An overheating fuel pump is fairly rare, but modern designs tend to use the fuel to provide cooling to the pump so a fouled filter will mean a greater amount of absorbed power is required to pump the fuel which equates to more heat to dissipate.
Hope this helps :)
One of the old plugs , when compared to the Haynes pictures and the link you just put up Tom they look ok . but zoomed right up , They look quite ashen and possibly bordering on running too hot maybe ?
http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m596/daddycool42/20160319_205555_zps6w45lpyu.jpg
http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m596/daddycool42/20160319_205555-1_zpscyf6ajxw.jpg
http://www.onallcylinders.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Normal-Condition-150x149.jpg
Here's a normal healthy plug from a site which pretty much resembles mine .
IF a carbed bike then looks a but weak to me but modern injected bikes often run pretty lean. Is it possible that the fuel cap breather hole or breather pipe is blocked? When it cuts out, open the fuel cap and see if you hear air suck in when you break the seal. Unlikely but have had it on a couple of bikes in years gone by, also on my Gioxer11 when I kinked the breather pipe on the fuel cap
tomearp
19-03-16, 10:31 PM
Plug looks pretty much textbook, so tends to indicate the mixture is correct.
If it was running lean and hot you wouldn't get the biscuit colour on the top of the insulator.
Just been having a scout about and there are a few people who have had issues with the fall detection sensor on EFI models. This post is quite informative and gives you some guidance on typical resistance values across the terminals of it. http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/159232-fall-detection-or-tip-over-switch-on-efi-models.html
It does say that when it triggers it will bring on the engine management light so could be a dead end. It also says that removing the switch will allow the engine to run but will also bring the engine management light on.
Clutching at straws a bit here, but at least it's something else you could rule out if it still happens with it removed.
IF a carbed bike then looks a but weak to me but modern injected bikes often run pretty lean. Is it possible that the fuel cap breather hole or breather pipe is blocked? When it cuts out, open the fuel cap and see if you hear air suck in when you break the seal. Unlikely but have had it on a couple of bikes in years gone by, also on my Gioxer11 when I kinked the breather pipe on the fuel cap
Cheers Trev , the bike's an EFI. I came across the breather from the tank and it comes out down around the centre stand and is cable tied on loosely , on one inspection the end of the pipe was sitting squarely on the main pivot housing of the stand , so I moved it , but maybe I need to re-locate it and fix it more securely . I also removed the fuel cap today but didn't really hear any vacuum . Will have another look tomorrow and go out for another local ride . Thanks for your input.
Plug looks pretty much textbook, so tends to indicate the mixture is correct.
If it was running lean and hot you wouldn't get the biscuit colour on the top of the insulator.
Just been having a scout about and there are a few people who have had issues with the fall detection sensor on EFI models. This post is quite informative and gives you some guidance on typical resistance values across the terminals of it. http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/159232-fall-detection-or-tip-over-switch-on-efi-models.html
It does say that when it triggers it will bring on the engine management light so could be a dead end. It also says that removing the switch will allow the engine to run but will also bring the engine management light on.
Clutching at straws a bit here, but at least it's something else you could rule out if it still happens with it removed.
Not clutching at straws at all Tom , I just had a cursory read of the link you posted , and the position of that tip over switch on this bike is under the seat just behind the battery in amongst the other electrical gubbins . Two days before I started having this problem I was in amongst that lot , removing the stock mudguard/taill light/indicator assembly and associated wiring and connector I replaced it with a tailtidy and fitted new tail light and indicators which was supplied with a plug and play wiring harness . It took a fair bit of wrestling and pulling the existing wiring about to route the new wiring to accommodate it all under the seat . I'm thinking and hoping this isn't just coincidence . reading that article , the said switch can be fairly temperamental if buggered about with and maybe I've upset it's position , not knowing what it was . The fella identifies it and describes where it is and what it looks like , so I'll investigate the little B*****D in the morning
Mitch9128
20-03-16, 08:26 AM
When did you last do the shims? Get's hot and closes up? Possible?
Davegsr
20-03-16, 09:34 AM
Following on from Mitch's post - have you done any work on the engine lately? Are all the head/casings bolts torqued down tight? Expanding metal on heating up may be creating distortion and loss of an airtight contact. Suffered a similar problem many years ago with a car's cylinder head not being tightened down correctly.
When did you last do the shims? Get's hot and closes up? Possible?
Thanks Mitch, I'm hoping that's not the case ,I had the clearances checked and 3 shims fitted just over 3000 miles ago , by what I believe to be a reputable and trustworthy workshop :rolleyes: checking the clearances on this bike isn't too much of a ball ache , but shim replacement is a bit more of task ! But I'll be checking the clearances at least .
wheelers
20-03-16, 08:58 PM
typical customer !!! has a problem then later on tells you they only have had the problem since they did....see it a lot.
if its only happened since you were in the electric nest, chances are that that is where your problem is. if it is the tip over sensor , you may have moved it so when you lean around bends or hit a bump it moves and cuts out. once righted, gravity might let it fall down and re set itself.
I would still look at cooling getting to coils as when they cool down they would work again. meters are ok but as with heat , under operating heat, vibrations etc you will get different readings which could show they are good
typical customer !!! has a problem then later on tells you they only have had the problem since they did....see it a lot.
if its only happened since you were in the electric nest, chances are that that is where your problem is. if it is the tip over sensor , you may have moved it so when you lean around bends or hit a bump it moves and cuts out. once righted, gravity might let it fall down and re set itself.
I would still look at cooling getting to coils as when they cool down they would work again. meters are ok but as with heat , under operating heat, vibrations etc you will get different readings which could show they are good
I'm not a typical customer !!! I haven't named anyone , I'm merely stating what the bike has had done to it and when it was done , and that I felt that I could trust the outfit who carried out the work , I was responding to Mitch's post in the hope that I could strike the valves off the list .
That's part of the reason this forum has seen better days , any time someone reaches out on a thread like this , to try and get to the bottom of a problem they may have , some smart arse , with a chip on his shoulder comes along and veers right off course !
Sorry Dabz ! Got issues with the bike and not really in the mood for Bollox !!!
Ok Dumb suggestion amnesty please.
Have you checked all the connectors are in properly?
Have you checked the battery terminals are tight?
Have you checked all the ground connections are good?
I would have thought if valve related you would have noticed other symptoms earlier.
I know F all about FI but if the lines/breather/etc is all good then that would be the next logical step.
Is the fuel pump operating properly?
I would have thought if valve related you would have noticed other symptoms earlier.
I know F all about FI but if the lines/breather/etc is all good then that would be the next logical step.
Is the fuel pump operating properly?
When the ignition is turned on the pump primes as it always has , and I've been in the garage today blowing down the breather hose and it seems to be obstruction free .
The next step is removing the new lighting and harness I fitted and re- installing the stock lighting .
I hope you've got to the bottom of the fault, I'd be interested to know what was the cause. If not, I have a tale...
Out of interest, how did the engine perform just prior to packing up each time? I only ask as I had a similarly annoying intermittent problem with a car a while back; in the seconds before cutting out it would seem a little hesitant to rev and then sound flat and stop, wait half hour and it was perfect again for another half hour... turned out to be an internal collapse of the exhaust!
Mitch9128
24-03-16, 10:22 AM
What about the fuel pressure regulator, the diaphragm inside could be playing up when it gets hot, as could the fuel pump, 2.2 Vauxhalls are renowned for it, it was even on Watchdog, i know, i flippin had one :) When it went, it was only apparent when the engine got up to temp, let it cool down and the all was pucker. Have you checked the vacuum line from the fpr isn't pissing out fuel?
As for customers moaning, why do dealers think most customers do all the work themselves?
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