View Full Version : Chain loose, wheel nut seized tight
b_m1957
03-05-11, 06:17 PM
I had a new rear tyre a week or so ago, changed professionally. It's been fine since then and I gave it some stick at the weekend once I'd worn the tyre in.
Since that ride, it started making a terrible noise like I was dragging something plastic along. I got the bike on the stand and it's obvious that the chain is far too loose; the top half of the chain is rubbing and catching along its bottom edge. So I tried the wheel nut so I could tension the chain properly and it was seized.
Are these problems likely to be related or is it more likely that the garage have just tightened the wheel nut more than I do? Any suggestions/tips???
Hopefully it's just a case of getting the wheel nut loose, tensioning the chain and all's good, but I want to check it's nothing more sinister first.
Cheers
wiltshire builders
03-05-11, 06:47 PM
I'd take it back to the garage that did the tyre. They may have cross threaded the nut. As for the chain being so loose it drags, i've never seen a chain that loose before. Get it looked at asap.
"changed professionally" you say? :-? :-? :-?
Any bike mechanic with more than a couple of brain cells should know that you don't need to touch chain adjustment when removing the rear wheel, the chain tension should have been exactly as it was before you took it there - sounds like the individual who performed this "service" (and I use the word advisedly) for you didn't have a clue what they were doing - take it back to the place and demand that they sort it out immediately. If they argue the toss you could threaten legal action as they've returned your bike to you in an unsafe condition >:( >:( >:(
b_m1957
03-05-11, 07:48 PM
What makes you think they adjusted the chain tension? Like I said, over 100 miles and a decent ride before any problems.
Is there anything that can make a chain suddenly lose tension? e.g. bust front sprocket?
I will give the garage I used a call tomorrow but can't take it back at the moment... it's not rideable.
Mark_Able
03-05-11, 09:06 PM
Sounds like it's been tightened with an air-gun. Bad news if so. >:(
470four
03-05-11, 09:47 PM
Sounds like it's been tightened with an air-gun. Bad news if so. >:(
Ditto...
Airgun at 200n/m to remove & tighten the wheelnut (heaven forbid they should actually use hand tools... ) then the wheel has been tensioned by pulling the spindle back and doing the axle nut up in a BMX-stylee, not by doing up the tensioner bolts? - as you have been riding the bike the axle has no tensioner bolts to push against & so gets pulled forward by the chain pull, hence a slack & floppy chain... ::)
W*nkers. Get them to come out and sort the bike, if they kick off then quote the phone number for Rogue Traders. :D
b_m1957
04-05-11, 07:20 AM
Sounds like it's been tightened with an air-gun. Bad news if so. >:(
Ditto...
Airgun at 200n/m to remove & tighten the wheelnut (heaven forbid they should actually use hand tools... ) then the wheel has been tensioned by pulling the spindle back and doing the axle nut up in a BMX-stylee, not by doing up the tensioner bolts? - as you have been riding the bike the axle has no tensioner bolts to push against & so gets pulled forward by the chain pull, hence a slack & floppy chain... ::)
W*nkers. Get them to come out and sort the bike, if they kick off then quote the phone number for Rogue Traders. :D
Thanks, that makes some sense.
I'm a bit surprised cos I've always rated the service I get there... I'll give 'em a call and get it sorted.
Have had this, is VERY annoying.
Send it back!
b_m1957
04-05-11, 08:13 AM
Have had this, is VERY annoying.
Send it back!
Can't ride it!!!
Am I wasting my time trying again with a large adjustable spanner?
470four
04-05-11, 08:15 AM
Yes, probably? Will need a socket & long breaker-bar methinks? Anyone in the Swindon area?
b_m1957
04-05-11, 08:54 AM
I've spoken to the garage and the guy insists that if the nut is that tight, the chain couldn't have become loose unless something else was wrong; he's suggested checking the rear sprocket.
Will check that when I get home... is he right about the chain? I've always rated this place but can't believe that the wheel nut could hold the chain in proper tension under load, however tight it was.
???
I've spoken to the garage and the guy insists that if the nut is that tight, the chain couldn't have become loose unless something else was wrong; he's suggested checking the rear sprocket.
Will check that when I get home... is he right about the chain? I've always rated this place but can't believe that the wheel nut could hold the chain in proper tension under load, however tight it was.
???
Any ideas on the size of socket required? May be able to help.
Have had this, is VERY annoying.
Send it back!
Can't ride it!!!
Am I wasting my time trying again with a large adjustable spanner?
Beg pardon.
Go careful with an adjustable. You can easily round the nut or worse knuckle the bike, floor etc.
Best bet is to geta socket and a long breaking bar. Safer all round.
b_m1957
04-05-11, 12:39 PM
I will check the sprocket tonight (it's a Thundercat).
I think I'll leave the spanner in my toolbox and maybe try to get hold of a socket set!
Hi Ben I can swing ivermectin with a breaker and socket tonight if you want?
Ivermectin? Funny swore I wrote over? Ah well u get the drift ;D
I've spoken to the garage ........ he's suggested checking the rear sprocket.
That simple statement shows the frightening level of his incompetence and lack of knowledge about bikes - pray tell me, how or what could the sprocket do to leave the chain really loose? ::) Whether the spindle nut is adequately or excessively tight, the chain will be loose because the adjusters have been messed with - probably slackened off to "allow" the chain to be removed from the sprocket by some eejit who shouldn't be allowed to work on a bike, and not correctly adjusted afterwards - probably a car "mechanic" who knows nothing about bikes at all >:(
What sort of tool were you using to try and undo the nut anyway Ben? You'd need either a large ring spanner or a socket and breaker bar, but NEVER NEVER NEVER an adjustable spanner, it's the bodger's favourite tool! ::)
Squashed_Fly
04-05-11, 02:51 PM
Just a side note - the garage/shop doesn't have any liability unless you notice a problem before driving it away.
My dad had a similar problem with his car. One garage did a service on it. He noticed a problem with it after driving it and took it to another garage. They basically said the part in question (can't remember what it was now but principle the same) had been taken off, and over tightened when put back and the entire part had to be removed and replaced costing over £500!!! Dad called a solicitor and they said no point pursuing it as the garage can claim that the damage was done after it left their premises and you have no way of proving otherwise. So he was left having to pay a costly bill for someone else mistake...
ChrisJo
04-05-11, 03:38 PM
Who in Swindon did the work (PM me if you like).
;)
b_m1957
04-05-11, 08:26 PM
I never denied being a bodger! (I'm an accountant... I'm not useless with a spanner but it's not my forte :-/)
Rear sprocket was suggested when I said it was making a grinding sound, not sure the chain was as loose as I thought now.
Seems the garages only problem was super-tightening the nut; sounds badly like rear wheel bearing now, and maybe bearing at the front sprocket too.
I think I need an expert to look at it (next step is begging phone call for father in law to bring jeep + trailer over ;D)
470four
05-05-11, 12:54 PM
What part of Swindon you in Mate? (rough description please, not a full address & postcode ;)) Im sure someone can pop over & sort this? Im on 12hour nights at the mo & having problems making toast at the mo, lol :D
Just a side note - the garage/shop doesn't have any liability unless you notice a problem before driving it away.
My dad had a similar problem with his car. One garage did a service on it. He noticed a problem with it after driving it and took it to another garage. They basically said the part in question (can't remember what it was now but principle the same) had been taken off, and over tightened when put back and the entire part had to be removed and replaced costing over £500!!! Dad called a solicitor and they said no point pursuing it as the garage can claim that the damage was done after it left their premises and you have no way of proving otherwise. So he was left having to pay a costly bill for someone else mistake...
I'm no lawyer and accept I might be wrong, but my thinking would be they are breaching their contract under the Sales of Goods Act over the service they have agreed to provide of satisfactory quality and to standard.
Maybe more importantly, they have also breached their legal responsibilities under the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 - specifically under Section 3.
Agreed, somethings can be difficult to prove, but that doesn't mean the legal liability is not there. Sometimes when you start to use such terminolgy, in a controlled and confident way they cave. I have used this tactic on several occasions always to good effect so far.
Squashed_Fly
05-05-11, 02:56 PM
Just a side note - the garage/shop doesn't have any liability unless you notice a problem before driving it away.
My dad had a similar problem with his car. One garage did a service on it. He noticed a problem with it after driving it and took it to another garage. They basically said the part in question (can't remember what it was now but principle the same) had been taken off, and over tightened when put back and the entire part had to be removed and replaced costing over £500!!! Dad called a solicitor and they said no point pursuing it as the garage can claim that the damage was done after it left their premises and you have no way of proving otherwise. So he was left having to pay a costly bill for someone else mistake...
I'm no lawyer and accept I might be wrong, but my thinking would be they are breaching their contract under the Sales of Goods Act over the service they have agreed to provide of satisfactory quality and to standard.
Maybe more importantly, they have also breached their legal responsibilities under the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 - specifically under Section 3.
Agreed, somethings can be difficult to prove, but that doesn't mean the legal liability is not there. Sometimes when you start to use such terminolgy, in a controlled and confident way they cave. I have used this tactic on several occasions always to good effect so far.
You're right, but so long as you realise when you pick the vehicle up, or within minutes of leaving. The moment you get home and do anything that involves spanners etc, you could be deemed to have caused the issue yourself, then it becomes a long drawn out battle of trying to prove they did the bodge job, not you (or another garage) after leaving.
The solicitors my dad spoke to, said he was within his rights to pursue the matter under the laws you mentioned, but it would expensive for him, and would almost certainly be pointless unless he could prove that it was the work the garage did that caused the issue. And of course he had no way of doing so as they had signed the work off as complete and ok, and they are 'trained professionals' (I use the term loosely!)
It was very bitter (and expensive) pill to swallow....
Just a side note - the garage/shop doesn't have any liability unless you notice a problem before driving it away.
My dad had a similar problem with his car. One garage did a service on it. He noticed a problem with it after driving it and took it to another garage. They basically said the part in question (can't remember what it was now but principle the same) had been taken off, and over tightened when put back and the entire part had to be removed and replaced costing over £500!!! Dad called a solicitor and they said no point pursuing it as the garage can claim that the damage was done after it left their premises and you have no way of proving otherwise. So he was left having to pay a costly bill for someone else mistake...
I'm no lawyer and accept I might be wrong, but my thinking would be they are breaching their contract under the Sales of Goods Act over the service they have agreed to provide of satisfactory quality and to standard.
Maybe more importantly, they have also breached their legal responsibilities under the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 - specifically under Section 3.
Agreed, somethings can be difficult to prove, but that doesn't mean the legal liability is not there. Sometimes when you start to use such terminolgy, in a controlled and confident way they cave. I have used this tactic on several occasions always to good effect so far.
You're right, but so long as you realise when you pick the vehicle up, or within minutes of leaving. The moment you get home and do anything that involves spanners etc, you could be deemed to have caused the issue yourself, then it becomes a long drawn out battle of trying to prove they did the bodge job, not you (or another garage) after leaving.
The solicitors my dad spoke to, said he was within his rights to pursue the matter under the laws you mentioned, but it would expensive for him, and would almost certainly be pointless unless he could prove that it was the work the garage did that caused the issue. And of course he had no way of doing so as they had signed the work off as complete and ok, and they are 'trained professionals' (I use the term loosely!)
It was very bitter (and expensive) pill to swallow....
So the solicitor did say he could pursue it after the event then? Of course it's easier if you know there's a problem whilst on the premises, but you still maintain your rights and they maintain their liability after you leave. I agree it becomes more difficult but the laws don't change once you drive off the forecourt.
As an example, how could you be expected to tell that as part of a service and one which is itemised on an invoice, they have changed an oil filter and put in 4L of Castrol's finest? Thats the point - you can't. And you cannot be expected to know and a judge would take that into consideration as part of any litigation if your engine blew 100 miles later.
Of course, if you have stripped the engine down yourself in the meatime you're screwed.... ;)
b_m1957
05-05-11, 05:21 PM
What part of Swindon you in Mate? (rough description please, not a full address & postcode ;)) Im sure someone can pop over & sort this? Im on 12hour nights at the mo & having problems making toast at the mo, lol :D
Redhouse, near the big Asda in North Swindon.
I'm not sure this is 'sortable' now without a new rear wheel (or bearings) at the very least :(
470four
05-05-11, 05:32 PM
Does the wheel itself or the sprocket carrier plate feel loose if you shake the wheel? Notchy, crunchy if you spin the wheel?
Cemorah
05-05-11, 05:44 PM
I live in Cricklade happy to have a quick look and advise quickest way to get bike back on road. Have sockets up to 32mm & a breaker bar if needed. Wheel bearings hold no fear simple and cheap repair. PM me if you need help
b_m1957
05-05-11, 05:48 PM
Does the wheel itself or the sprocket carrier plate feel loose if you shake the wheel? Notchy, crunchy if you spin the wheel?
There's some jumping and a crunching noise from the rear wheel and some shiny swarf deposit, but no movement in sprocket or wheel.
Quickest way back on the road is what I need I think!!!
470four
05-05-11, 05:58 PM
What does the swarf look like? big or small flakes, shavings? Could it be off your sprocket cover or swingarm?
Wish I was closer to have a look at this... :-/
b_m1957
05-05-11, 06:20 PM
What does the swarf look like? big or small flakes, shavings? Could it be off your sprocket cover or swingarm?
Wish I was closer to have a look at this... :-/
Shavings on the wheel hub. I'm assuming coming from the crunching sound inside the wheel
Honda_Star
05-05-11, 06:23 PM
Just a side note - the garage/shop doesn't have any liability unless you notice a problem before driving it away.
My dad had a similar problem with his car. One garage did a service on it. He noticed a problem with it after driving it and took it to another garage. They basically said the part in question (can't remember what it was now but principle the same) had been taken off, and over tightened when put back and the entire part had to be removed and replaced costing over £500!!! Dad called a solicitor and they said no point pursuing it as the garage can claim that the damage was done after it left their premises and you have no way of proving otherwise. So he was left having to pay a costly bill for someone else mistake...
I'm no lawyer and accept I might be wrong, but my thinking would be they are breaching their contract under the Sales of Goods Act over the service they have agreed to provide of satisfactory quality and to standard.
Maybe more importantly, they have also breached their legal responsibilities under the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 - specifically under Section 3.
Agreed, somethings can be difficult to prove, but that doesn't mean the legal liability is not there. Sometimes when you start to use such terminolgy, in a controlled and confident way they cave. I have used this tactic on several occasions always to good effect so far.
You're right, but so long as you realise when you pick the vehicle up, or within minutes of leaving. The moment you get home and do anything that involves spanners etc, you could be deemed to have caused the issue yourself, then it becomes a long drawn out battle of trying to prove they did the bodge job, not you (or another garage) after leaving.
The solicitors my dad spoke to, said he was within his rights to pursue the matter under the laws you mentioned, but it would expensive for him, and would almost certainly be pointless unless he could prove that it was the work the garage did that caused the issue. And of course he had no way of doing so as they had signed the work off as complete and ok, and they are 'trained professionals' (I use the term loosely!)
It was very bitter (and expensive) pill to swallow....
So the solicitor did say he could pursue it after the event then? Of course it's easier if you know there's a problem whilst on the premises, but you still maintain your rights and they maintain their liability after you leave. I agree it becomes more difficult but the laws don't change once you drive off the forecourt.
As an example, how could you be expected to tell that as part of a service and one which is itemised on an invoice, they have changed an oil filter and put in 4L of Castrol's finest? Thats the point - you can't. And you cannot be expected to know and a judge would take that into consideration as part of any litigation if your engine blew 100 miles later.
Of course, if you have stripped the engine down yourself in the meatime you're screwed.... ;)
B_M - im a solicitor (although not a litigator) but I can get one of my colleagues to give you a call tomorrow for a bit of initial freebie advice if you like to see if it's worth pursuing? PM me your number if you would like me to pass your details on :) :)
Could have they forgotten to put the wheel spacers back on the spindle and the sprocket is fouling the swing arm?
b_m1957
05-05-11, 07:06 PM
Could have they forgotten to put the wheel spacers back on the spindle and the sprocket is fouling the swing arm?
No, it's not constant enough to be anything like that.
It's got worse now and really sounds like something inside the wheel, rather than rubbing externally.
alanTDM
06-05-11, 09:25 PM
I think the axle nut is a 22mm but Haynes manual says torqued to 117NM
b_m1957
07-05-11, 11:36 AM
Turns out the sprocket carrier bearing was shot and the seal gone; loose chain and tight nut were just red herrings. I blame Fish Hill :( lol
Hopefully not long til I'm back on the road ;D
Honda_Star
07-05-11, 12:07 PM
Turns out the sprocket carrier bearing was shot and the seal gone; loose chain and tight nut were just red herrings. I blame Fish Hill :( lol
Hopefully not long til I'm back on the road ;D
Don't go blaming my ride out lol - hope you get it sorted soon :)
b_m1957
07-05-11, 12:19 PM
Don't go blaming my ride out lol - hope you get it sorted soon :)
More my riding ::)
Glad ita a straight forward fix then, catch up with u again soon,
b_m1957
07-05-11, 09:16 PM
Glad ita a straight forward fix then, catch up with u again soon,
Once that's done I'll be listening again to that front sprocket!
You'l be being full time dad by then lol, so good luck with your new born when he/she arrives if I don't see you before then,
Turns out the sprocket carrier bearing was shot and the seal gone.....
As a matter of interest, was there a spacer inside the sprocket hub, between the carrier bearing and the wheel bearing on that side? If that spacer had been omitted when they refitted your wheel, the carrier bearing would be destroyed in next to no time.... :-?
b_m1957
20-05-11, 07:10 AM
Scotty, do you mean part # 12 on this (http://www.cmsnl.com/yamaha-yzf600rmrmc-2000_model10892/partslist/E-06.html) diagram?
Sprocket carrier bearing (and wheel bearing) now replaced and all seems well at the back end.
There's definitely something wrong at the front end now; once first gear is engaged (on paddock stand), the chain starts jumping around and seems to snag, making the whole bike seem to jump.
I don't think any teeth are buggered, I'm more inclined to blame the drive shaft bearing. Hope to get my hands on a decent allen key at the weekend to try to get the crank case cover off and have a look.
Any thoughts on what's most likely/anything I've not thought of???
Cheers
alanTDM
22-05-11, 08:24 AM
Chain might be knackered with some stiff links that will cause a jumping sensation as its not going round the gear box sprocket correctly so its jumping
Put the bike on the paddock stand and turn the wheel with the sprocket cover off ,if its stiff links you will see them.
b_m1957
22-05-11, 08:48 AM
Chain might be knackered with some stiff links that will cause a jumping sensation as its not going round the gear box sprocket correctly so its jumping
Put the bike on the paddock stand and turn the wheel with the sprocket cover off ,if its stiff links you will see them.
I've had the sprocket cover off... nothing obvious in there and chain seems fine.
Could a loose sprocket cause the 'jumping'? It seems to be coming from the transmission, so it looks like I could be learning the hard way how to take an engine apart :'(
alanTDM
22-05-11, 02:05 PM
The sprocket is on splines there should be no fore and aft freeplay I know some bikes eg some Fazers and TDM's the front sprocket nut comes slightly loose but there should be a locking washer holding the nut.A new sprocket nut usally cures that with loctite and new locking washer.
To find out if it is your gearbox take the chain off the sprocket and run the engine in the gears if you still got the noise then its a gearbox problem if not its chain related.
alanTDM
22-05-11, 02:27 PM
If sprocket is starting to look hooked like this then its fooked.That will give a knocking noise and normally only in the 1st or 2nd gears at certain low rpm eg pulling away from juctions
b_m1957
22-05-11, 03:03 PM
I'm pretty sure the sprocket itself looks ok
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/6333/21052011031.jpg
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/6429/21052011030.jpg
alanTDM
22-05-11, 06:01 PM
Seems to look ok to me
Mine done the same, apparently a tight spot in the chain can make it do it, I'm changing my chain sprockets anyway as the cheap option first il let you know if it cures it.
b_m1957
24-05-11, 11:36 AM
Chain off the front sprocket and still making horrible noises :-[
Not as bad but I guess that's to be expected with no turning resistance.
Haynes manual and some basic tools bought - I guess I'll be learning how to take an engine apart ;D
Cemorah
24-05-11, 07:40 PM
All gear boxes have some backlash, Worn chains have loose & tight spots and running the engine with no load on the back wheel is NO test.
Put the chain on again and check for jumping in each gear with a light load using the back brake
any problems PM me I can pop over and have a quick look
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