Body Position - Scotty et al?

[Squashed_Fly]

Wonder if some of the more experienced can offer some advice on better body position, judging from these pics. Been working on it. Am really trying to drop the shoulder, get the head down etc, and when I'm leant over, it feels like I've got it right. The knee down thing is out of the way now, I can do it so I want to move on and make sure I'm sat better so I can carry more corner speed.

That's the one thing I took away from the Ron Haslam day, was that I need to improve on my corner entry & exit. Ironically, the instructor there said my body position was really good, so don't know if I've let it slip, but these pics show I'm nowhere near where I think I am when leant over....

Pic 1
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg253/aidanmoore/DSC00392.jpg

Pic 2
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg253/aidanmoore/DSC00388.jpg

Pic 3
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg253/aidanmoore/DSC00393.jpg

Pic 4
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg253/aidanmoore/KD1.jpg

Pic 5
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg253/aidanmoore/KD2.jpg


These were all taken around 35-40mph, in 3rd gear...

[wiltshire builders]

What are you after? You don't have to hang off the bike to have corner speed.
Road positioning and smoothness are all that matter. If you follow a cop or instructor, they hardly move on the bike but their corner speeds are consistent. Forget getiing your knee down on the road. There are far too many unknown factors. Road craft is what good, fast, safe riding is all about.

[Squashed_Fly]

What are you after? You don't have to hang off the bike to have corner speed.

Maybe I got the wrong end of the stick - I thought the idea of hanging off, was so that you can go faster round, but without leaning the bike as much?

Mind you, there is very little lean angle from those pics, so I can probably sit more on the seat and lean the bike further?

[simongpz]

ive found that what works for me is sit in the same position as i would on the straght and lean the bike over as far is i think is safe
the other thing that gets me good speed out of corners is road position going into the corner to give myself more run off out of the bend
i also open it up half way around the bend to get good speed out of the bend but that might not work for all bikes depends on power and weight the little gpz is very forgiveing on bends due to low power and very light weight makeing it easy to chuck around the bends

[wiltshire builders]

You're absolutely right about hanging off. But it means nothing if your entry speed, road positioning and throttle control are wrong. I hardly hang off the bike when I ride. By all means use the skills you learned from the track day, but don't confuse being fast with being a good rider.
I've blitzed past many riders that are all knee out and jerky throttle just by being smooth and taking a better line.

If you've got more than one cheek off the seat, it's too much.

[Scotty]

No offence SF, but you look like a complete tit, hanging off like a gibbon yet leaning it like a pussy, your right foot position is crap - did you learn nothing on the RH day, like "ball of foot on peg so your toes don't stick out"? Learn to lean it properly first, then you can lean it less if you want or need to - if you can't lean it and you need to then you're screwed.

Riding like that on the road screams "look at me everybody, I'm a hero with my knee down!" yet the story it really tells is rather sad. Go on track and learn to ride properly - you were booked up for Llandow and could have had a great day learning to ride, but you dropped out claiming poverty if I recall, and then signed up for Castle Combe which costs twice as much - somewhat illogical non?

Riding is about learning it and doing it, not about thinking you look like a hero but actually being slow and looking like a dick.

Sorry if this reply offends, but you did ask.... ::)

[Jon_W]

ive found that what works for me is sit in the same position as i would on the straght and lean the bike over as far is i think is safe
the other thing that gets me good speed out of corners is road position going into the corner to give myself more run off out of the bend
i also open it up half way around the bend to get good speed out of the bend but that might not work for all bikes depends on power and weight the little gpz is very forgiveing on bends due to low power and very light weight makeing it easy to chuck around the bends

Absolutely. Road position is the key, no hanging off it like a chimp on a banna tree. I like you, ride my GS without leaning off as I find it makes the bike more stable and I can hapily get off the edge of the tyres.... and keep up with the baboons.

So sit further foward, get your arms bent, and tuck yer knee in.

[BB]

Scotty, Yes SF did ask but is asking for advice on riding, not comments on his funds or lack of.

Personally I think he is brave putting up this post and asking. I wouldn't ask for advice from anyone on here on my riding just so my style could be picked over! And before anyone makes any cracks about my riding I know I don't get my knee down, have poor road positioning, have bad habits, etc etc. but I don't pretend to be something I'm not, I simply enjoy riding a bike.

And before anyone gets shirty about this post, this is my personal view not the view of the management etc etc.

Sorry if this offends ::)

BB

[Squashed_Fly]

Thanks WB and others who actually bothered to try and help BTW.

[Dabz]

Totally agree, all credit to Aiden for asking for advice in our 'Riding Tips & Training' section..so lets keep replies constructive?

My 2 cents comes from something Ghost told me - the first guy to do a 100mph+ lap of the TT (or was is 130mph, BB/Ghost!?) did so tucked under the fairing, bum stuck to the seat and no moving about, certainly no knee-down hanging off.

[Jon_W]

I'm no instructor and this is MY opinion and by no means gospel.

I'll repeat, get your arms bent as you need the leverage, get you knee tucked in as it'll get ripped off by somthing and let the bike lean.

I'd read "A Twist of the Wrist" Vol 2 by Keith Code. He offers some very good tips on riding position.

[Bornagain]

10 out of 10 for effort and enthusiasm. I've found that speed necessitates the correct body position, in other words it's actually easier and more natural to lean the bike right over carrying more speed into corners. So far the only places where i've been able to do that comfortably have been the track, and with the added bonus of repetition you get to practice practice practice.
Hangin off round a roundabout at 35mph seems like bloody hard work and unnecessary, yeah, it'll scrape your slider but i dont think you'll get much benefit from it riding wise, it just seems like a forced and uncomfortably way to negotiate a low speed bend........with lots of exit and entry points thrown in!!

I'm learning shed loads and share your enthusiasm. I pick Snotty Cowell's brain and follow him, watching his body position and road position, it's like having your own race instructor and it's FREE! If you're serious about making some serious improvements to your riding then PM him, once you get past the horror of abuse and sarcasm there's a soft and gentle nurturing soul underneath ;D ;D ;D though you've got to dig deep!!!

One month til Combe

[Squashed_Fly]

Totally agree, all credit to Aiden for asking for advice in our 'Riding Tips & Training' section..so lets keep replies constructive?

My 2 cents comes from something Ghost told me - the first guy to do a 100mph+ lap of the TT (or was is 130mph, BB/Ghost!?) did so tucked under the fairing, bum stuck to the seat and no moving about, certainly no knee-down hanging off.




If that's the case, and I'm not agreeing or disagreeing as I'm always learning, then why do people hang off? If you watch fast riders, on track, or in the TT, most seem to hang off the bike. I did a session with the California Superbike school on their hydraulic bike, and they also said you should have a bum cheek off the seat, and hook the tank with your knee. They said ideally your non 'stuck out' knee should be in the crease of the tank, with the foot on ball of feet pushing upwards into the tank. Other knee out so you can guage the lean angle, shoulder down and head somewhere near the mirror.

As my confidence with the bike leaning improves, I'll be able to come onto the seat and lean the bike further. There's still that bit in my head that says "the back wheel is about to slide out from under you", despite knowing before and after that it will lean far more than I'll probably ever be able to go!

I'd love to be able to spend all weekend, every weekend on the track, learning and going faster. But sadly, the funds do prohibit that, despite my personal finance manager Scotty thinking he has the slightest clue about my money situation. So the next best thing is a roundabout that I know well and have checked for oil/diesel & loose debris first before doing anything, and a twisty road I know well while it's warm & quiet (like yesterday - warm & sunny sunday evening)

[Dabz]

I'm not actually sure, I'll do some research :P it could be old school riding technique vs new school I guess!

[Squashed_Fly]

So far the only places where i've been able to do that comfortably have been the track, and with the added bonus of repetition you get to practice practice practice.

I'm not doing Combe. I'm not sure if I'll get to many track days now this year since we've booked the wedding date. Ron Haslam cost in more ways than one after Jen found out how much I'd spent on it!

I'm still hopeful of doing Cadwell as it's right on my dads doorstep, but that won't be until Aug/September.

Was gutted to not be able to make Llandow. I was really looking forward to it. But we needed the money really for the wedding and Jens treatment.

[BB]

Technology for bikes & tyres have changed as have riding styles to take advantage of those changes. What works nowadays would not have worked on the old tech stuff. Even classic bikes racing today are racing on modern 'rubber' with all it's advantages.

If you can't afford track days & training, go for the books & dvd's etc. Talk to people on here who's riding style you admire/envy and learn with them.

However - and this is not aimed at you personally but at all wannabees of any level & persuasion - just remember you will be riding on the public roads not on a track with first aid & marshalls. Stay safe and try not to alienate too many 'normal' people and set them against bikers! 8-)

BB

[Jon_W]

However - and this is not aimed at you personally but at all wannabees of any level & persuasion - just remember you will be riding on the public roads not on a track with first aid & marshalls. Stay safe and try not to alienate too many 'normal' people and set them against bikers! 8-)

BB

+1.

[Scotty]

.
I pick Snotty Cowell's brain and ...... once you get past the horror of abuse and sarcasm there's a soft and gentle nurturing soul underneath ;D ;D ;D though you've got to dig deep!!!

Aaaargh! Busted! :-[ :-[ :-[ :'(

Basil's right, the track is by far the best place to practice riding technique due to the safety and repeatability aspects of it, but unfortunately there isn't a cheap way to do it, just some ways are less expensive than others. If all you have access to is the roads, then practice road riding and roadcraft, it'll do a better job of keeping you alive than pretending to be a racer round the local roundabout ;) ::) You're better off keeping track-type antics to the track, where you can learn them in safety. I have got my knee down on the road before, but not for the last fifteen years - I just keep it to the track now, it doesn't matter now, and in all honesty it never did on the road, and in the eyes of certain officers of the law it merits a ticket as well >:(

[jaagsxr]

hear hear i got my knee down the other day at fish hill and nearly got it ripped off cos the tarmac was so much more "knobbly" than on track ....oh i am sure you did get your knee down snotty ...where was it ...oh in the pub car park ;D ;D

[Mark_Able]

Cornering techniques differ tremendously from road to track. When racing, I would get my knee down on the warm up lap to gauge lean angle, but rarely in the race. If it went down in the race, it was a consequence of lean angle, not a conscious effort. As mentioned by Jon, arm position (bent at the elbow), body position (in relation to the tank), foot position (ball of the foot on inside peg, arch of the foot on outside peg (loading weight)) are the important factors to work on. It was Mike Hailwood who never hung off the bike at the TT. The hanging off style has it's place. I do move in my seat when I'm going for it, but not as much as you'd imagine. On the track, I would be hanging off mostly when exiting corners, in an attempt to stand the bike up, so as I could get on the power earlier. But by far the most important part of the corner is corner entry. The whole preparation for corner entry starts happening from the exit of the previous corner. The whole task of shifting your ass, postioning your arms and feet, braking, selecting the gear, and ultimately counter-steering into the corner, has to start early to be smooth, and to be done in plenty of time. Trying to rearrange yourself once you're in the corner will de-stabilise the bike.

Save the knee down antics for track days mate. I can ride faster and smoother on the road than someone trying to get their knee down. And in fact, take great pleasure in riding around someone mid corner, who is doing exactly that... ;)

[Uber Dave]

I hardly move on my bike at all, and I am sure some other others will back me up in that I am not slow in the slightest when it comes to bends.

Riding the correct line/entry & exit speeds/brake points, confidence in the bike and a good understanding with counter steering is all you need!

[Squashed_Fly]

Dave - do you lean your body off the bike at all, or stay all in line? I was following Jaydee back a few weeks ago, and his bum doesn't seem to move much, but his head and shoulders are leant off the bike, almost as if he's willing it round! lol

[Uber Dave]

I move my very upper body a little bit (Mid torso to shoulders) and I look around the bend so my head is always pointed to the end of the corner (god knows how it looks to others!)

As for my bum, it rarely moves to be honest, sometimes I have a shuffle round on bends, and went through of phase of moving my ass to either side of the seat in bends, but in all honesty I was concerntrating too much on my bum been in the correct possition and ended up messing the corner up as a result, so I just gave up.

You are doing Cornwall correct? Feel free to follow me and see for yourself.

[Squashed_Fly]

Might just do that :)

[jaagsxr]

dave if sf is followin you down to cornwall we will need to leave earlier ????

[Uber Dave]

dave if sf is followin you down to cornwall we will need to leave earlier ????

lol, Well I never said the whole way down, the first couple of bends at least ;-)

[jaagsxr]

ohh ok soo how long do you think it will take ?? seein as it is the progressive route ?

[NoYou]

SF there's a thing in this months RiDE (I think, need to check) that may be of interest to you, it all about road position, body position and maintaining corner speed, might want to check it out :)
Geo

[Uber Dave]

ohh ok soo how long do you think it will take ?? seein as it is the progressive route ?

See FB!

[jaagsxr]

:exclamation [smiley=thumbup.gif]

[jonnydangerous]

SF, how about making sure the bike is capable, with no wear in suspension or brakes and correct settings for you before trying to go faster on all the wrong settings?....
ride at the same speed youre doing now with the bike set up to work with you, then progress from there, the bike reacting in the right way will require a different input and body position from a bike thats worn/set up wrong...............
good pics tho, looks like a fun day (also the lack of cars in the photos was good) :-)

[Squashed_Fly]

The brakes work quite well actually! Some nice, kind chap fixed them in return for a kebab :P

Suspension will be shortly as well ;)

[jonnydangerous]

Some nice, kind chap fixed them in return for a kebab :P



......is it in the post then???....... ;)

that looks a well good roundabout, wanna show us where it is and get some more photos in?????

[Squashed_Fly]

http://goo.gl/maps/0Tui

[jonnydangerous]

I was following Jaydee back a few weeks ago, and his bum doesn't seem to move much, but his head and shoulders are leant off the bike, almost as if he's willing it round! lol

.....thats not the "proper style" that has more to do with a surgeon taking a muscle out of my back and putting it into my leg.....hahaha... i only ride like that cos ive got a fecked leg and back....hahahaha....

might be best to watch someone who's actually doing it right :-)

[Jacde]

SF should you admit in a public forum that you watch other men's backsides :o ;D

ps I've been round that roundabout good init! 8-)
Tho no knee down for me, my riding style is more like Driving Miss Daisy :)

[Squashed_Fly]

SF should you admit in a public forum that you watch other men's backsides :o ;D

ps I've been round that roundabout good init! 8-)
Tho no knee down for me, my riding style is more like Driving Miss Daisy :)

Men??? Didn't you hear, I said I was following Jaydee! ;D ;D

It is a perfect roundabout. Quiet, nice tarmac, no gravel or bumps, and on a warm sunday evening, there aren't many places like it to have a bit of fun on the bike without annoying too many people.

[jonnydangerous]

sturminster newton, six penny handley are also good roundabouts :-) the one at sterminster newton has the grippy "shell grip" stuff all the way round too (sliders last about half an hour) hahaha :-)

[Nico_babe]

Hey i watch mens backside's when i ride!!

;) ;D

[Jacde]

Hey i watch mens backside's when i ride!!

;) ;D

;D ;D so do I

[Uber Dave]

Hey i watch mens backside's when i ride!!

;) ;D

;D ;D so do I


Explains why you both hang back then ;-)

[Beamer]

Hey i watch mens backside's when i ride!!

;) ;D

;D ;D so do I


Explains why you both hang back then ;-)



Im thoroughly shocked by these statements!!!
Mainly because they say that you watch mens backsides when you ride !!!
What about the rest of the time......mens bums are there to be watched ALL the time....or am I in a minority here ???? hehehehehe
(thats equality for ya hehe)
;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

[Jon_W]

You al should be looking at the rod ahead!!! Not the ar5e of he bloke ahead. Shocking! :D

[Mark_Able]

Hey i watch mens backside's when i ride!!

;) ;D

;D ;D so do I


Explains why you both hang back then ;-)



Im thoroughly shocked by these statements!!!
Mainly because they say that you watch mens backsides when you ride !!!
What about the rest of the time......mens bums are there to be watched ALL the time....or am I in a minority here ???? hehehehehe
(thats equality for ya hehe)
;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

Is that why you preferred to go behind during the training...??? [smiley=happy.gif]

[Squashed_Fly]

I'll be careful when I stay over then Tina! lol

[Moo]

You al should be looking at the rod ahead!!! Not the ar5e of he bloke ahead. Shocking! :D


Not sure which one is worse the rod or the ar5e :-/

[Beamer]

Hey i watch mens backside's when i ride!!

;) ;D

;D ;D so do I


Explains why you both hang back then ;-)



Im thoroughly shocked by these statements!!!
Mainly because they say that you watch mens backsides when you ride !!!
What about the rest of the time......mens bums are there to be watched ALL the time....or am I in a minority here ???? hehehehehe
(thats equality for ya hehe)
;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

Is that why you preferred to go behind during the training...??? [smiley=happy.gif]



Oh poo.....busted !!! hehehe
Well couldnt rely on you to point out any nice young men for me to ogle at.... the ones you pointed out for me only just about had a pulse hehe....or were ummm not too pleasant on the eyes lol.
;) ;) ;) ;)

(I do miss those training/test days....Im gonna have to tag along one day just to be able to enjoy it without the pressure of being tested at the end lol)

[Beamer]

I'll be careful when I stay over then Tina! lol



Hehe....dont worry you'll be safe...kev and connor will be here...and Im the pillar of respectability when 'working' at Beamer's B+B hehehehe ;) ;) ;) ;)

[BB]

You al should be looking at the rod ahead!!! Not the ar5e of he bloke ahead. Shocking! :D


Not sure which one is worse the rod or the ar5e :-/

:o :o ;D ;D

BB

[Jon_W]

I hate the laptop keyboard.... keep missing letters....

>:( ;D ;D

[Uber Dave]

I'll be careful when I stay over then Tina! lol



Hehe....dont worry you'll be safe...kev and connor will be here...and Im the pillar of respectability when 'working' at Beamer's B+B hehehehe ;) ;) ;) ;)
My God, how times have changed!

[Uber Dave]

Just for you SF

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/268608_10150221771956949_508541948_7594702_7405198 _n.jpg

Mounted my camera on my dash board as well so I will have some video when I get round to editing it (including the pot hole I clipped which nearly threw me off on a double apex corner)

Edit: Here you go, hardly shift at all, and I was not hanging around much either!

http://youtu.be/lKHPZSlVX38?hd=1

[Rossio]

your bike sounds lurvley dave

[Squashed_Fly]

Looking good mate. I probably [definately?] don't need to hang off as much as I am doing, but equally I don't think I'd feel that confortable, staying that static, but it's hard to tell from that angle what the bike is doing.

Should be a good blast down to cornwall in any case. looking forward to it now. I'm not as quick as the likes of Scotty, or Jaydee, but I'm not a slow rider. Just looking for some tips to improve and get quicker

[Dabz]

Riding with Dave the other week did wonders for me..mainly in terms of filtering. He's a real filtering bastard :P

[Roxy]

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/268608_10150221771956949_508541948_7594702_7405198 _n.jpg

Mounted my camera on my dash board as well so I will have some video when I get round to editing it (including the pot hole I clipped which nearly threw me off on a double apex corner)

Edit: Here you go, hardly shift at all, and I was not hanging around much either!

http://youtu.be/lKHPZSlVX38?hd=1


Geek - We love you!!!!!! LOL

[Bornagain]

Enjoyed that...shame about the camera position on the airfield runway, i take it you kicked some butt with them there pesky cars ;) ;) ;)

[Uber Dave]

Riding with Dave the other week did wonders for me..mainly in terms of filtering. He's a real filtering bastard :P

Hell yeah, if you ever drive through the centre of Lincoln during rush hour you know why I am like that!

Basil, I was so annoyed with the race one with the cars. I took a whole load of footage, to start with they were racing each other and I was playing chase to record it, but then when I got involved they didnt have much chance really. However the huge supercharger on the GT500 above 140mph had him catching me till his limiter kicked in at 156mph!

[NoYou]

Just for you SF

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/268608_10150221771956949_508541948_7594702_7405198 _n.jpg

Mounted my camera on my dash board as well so I will have some video when I get round to editing it (including the pot hole I clipped which nearly threw me off on a double apex corner)

Edit: Here you go, hardly shift at all, and I was not hanging around much either!

http://youtu.be/lKHPZSlVX38?hd=1
Do you ever blink?!?! you looked like you were terrified or just plain psychotic! xD nice vid though was starting to wonder if I was being a bit to static when riding...
Geo

[Uber Dave]

Just for you SF

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/268608_10150221771956949_508541948_7594702_7405198 _n.jpg

Mounted my camera on my dash board as well so I will have some video when I get round to editing it (including the pot hole I clipped which nearly threw me off on a double apex corner)

Edit: Here you go, hardly shift at all, and I was not hanging around much either!

http://youtu.be/lKHPZSlVX38?hd=1
Do you ever blink?!?! you looked like you were terrified or just plain psychotic! xD nice vid though was starting to wonder if I was being a bit to static when riding...
Geo


Never even noticed, I was giving it some though and so was concerntrating quite a lot, obviously the psychotic one ;-)