UK Leave EU?

[redken1]

Even before its inception back in 1999, I believed that the Euro would fail and as it nears collapse, I’m surprised it has survived this long. Monetary union will never succeed without fiscal union and fiscal union within the EU community will never happen because the member states have different economies and priorities.

Personally, I hope it is the beginning of the end of the EU, I’m sick and tired of unaccountable eurocrats interfering in my daily life. Last Sunday’s demo being a case in point. Should our government hold a referendum on whether or not the UK should withdraw from the EU? And if so, should we withdraw?

[Rabb]

Even before its inception back in 1999, I believed that the Euro would fail and as it nears collapse, I’m surprised it has survived this long. Monetary union will never succeed without fiscal union and fiscal union within the EU community will never happen because the member states have different economies and priorities.

Personally, I hope it is the beginning of the end of the EU, I’m sick and tired of unaccountable eurocrats interfering in my daily life. Last Sunday’s demo being a case in point. Should our government hold a referendum on whether or not the UK should withdraw from the EU? And if so, should we withdraw?


+ 1

[NoYou]

Imo yes we should withdraw, by being part of the EU we have gained ... well nothing of any consequence and lost our freedom do to what we like with our country.
From where I'm stood it seems that by leaving the EU we would no longer be obligated to assist other countries in a financial/economical crap heap when we are barely staying afloat ourselves.
We are considered one of the richest countries in the world and yes we are, but just because we are a rich country doesn't mean we are in an economicaly stable situation. Until such a time as we have a stableized our own country we need to get out of a position where we are obliged to sort out other countries in tandem with our own.
(And then politely decline the invitation to rejoin when we are sorted :P)

[Mark_Able]

I think we should stick our sprint shoes on, and get out as quick as our little Anglo-Saxon legs can take us... :(

[Nelly]

I think we should stick our sprint shoes on, and get out as quick as our little Anglo-Saxon legs can take us... :(

lol agee! ;D

[Mark_Able]

I don't just dislike the EU, I bloody hate it. It's done nothing positive for us. >:(

[wiltsdan]

Oh, I see, don't hold back ;D

[470four]

I think we should stick our sprint shoes on, and get out as quick as our little Anglo-Saxon legs can take us... :(
+1

[Col]

It would be of significant financial advantage if we pulled out and removed E.U. imposed industry costs and review all other legislation that has been imposed thanks to our successive weak ,or self interest which is more the case, governments.

Who of sound mind pays a £1 to get back c.60p --- the economics of a lunatic asylum.

By not being a member there would be no job losses , no loss of trade as many companies are in foreign ownership anyway, no CAP which would save £15 billion alone :o

London is a major money industry centre whatever you feel about these banks/institutions they could generate much more if freed from future 'levies' about to be imposed in order to keep the E.U. going...invariably some ,if not all, will be passed onto their customers ::)

Never have agreed with it and glad it is now looking very unstable---it has been a disaster for us- the sooner it collapses the better ;D

[JAYJAY]

Hmmm - some food for thought. Dunno that our trade would vbe that good with a collapsed europe!! We may well be one of the richest countries in the world but the majority of our population never feel it - what with government after government spending that wealth on being the worlds policeman!!

There are countries far lower on the wealth scale with a far higher standard of living - broke Iceland for instance!!

When will we ever get a government that will govern for OUR benefit rather that their own popularity and re-election?

Forget arguments about the EU - look closer to home to find our real enemy

[Toph]

Just a thought... why, when we had the lib-dem highly expensive referendum on proportional representation about a year ago, didn't there include, on the ballot paper, boxes to tick on other issues such as membership of the EU, capital punishment, immigration.. etc , maybe there would have been a half decent turnout. :-? :-? :-?

[Jon_W]

Hmmm - some food for thought. Dunno that our trade would vbe that good with a collapsed europe!! We may well be one of the richest countries in the world but the majority of our population never feel it - what with government after government spending that wealth on being the worlds policeman!!

There are countries far lower on the wealth scale with a far higher standard of living - broke Iceland for instance!!

When will we ever get a government that will govern for OUR benefit rather that their own popularity and re-election?

Forget arguments about the EU - look closer to home to find our real enemy

Agreed. The Eu isn't the real issue. Before the Uk can do anything about the EU we need to get our own house in order. People must remember we run a HUGE trade deficit and rely on service industry. We need to be looking at the German economic model. They managed to sort their hose out and now they are the strongest econimy in europe and one of the strongest in the world!

[Last Train]

Hmmm - some food for thought. Dunno that our trade would vbe that good with a collapsed europe!! We may well be one of the richest countries in the world but the majority of our population never feel it - what with government after government spending that wealth on being the worlds policeman!!

There are countries far lower on the wealth scale with a far higher standard of living - broke Iceland for instance!!

When will we ever get a government that will govern for OUR benefit rather that their own popularity and re-election?

Forget arguments about the EU - look closer to home to find our real enemy


http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/signs/smiley-vault-signs-016.gif (http://www.smileyvault.com/)

[470four]

I wouldnt quite phrase it as rats leaving a sinking ship but one by one they are disappearing up their own chuff - we need to become England again and leave them to their own problems rather than try to subsidise theirs with the tiny country's budget we have. ;)

[BladeTriple]

On todays BBC news... Another prime example of why we need out of EU control....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15120522


>:(

[FJ_Biker]

Jay Jay wrote


When will we ever get a government that will govern for OUR benefit rather that their own popularity and re-election?

Forget arguments about the EU - look closer to home to find our real enemy

To me this is the real problem, not the EU.

Plus I also believe governments put big business before the voters

[Crosbie]

Jay Jay wrote


When will we ever get a government that will govern for OUR benefit rather that their own popularity and re-election?

Forget arguments about the EU - look closer to home to find our real enemy

To me this is the real problem, not the EU.

Plus I also believe governments put big business before the voters

Check todays news! The government couldnt do anything for our benefit even if they wanted to because of Brussels sticking their dirty little fingers in our pies.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15120522

A little bit of light reading. This is the kind of thing that shouts the UK needs to pull out of Europe 100% before things here will ever start to look good again.

[FJ_Biker]

But any UK citizen could move to another European and do the same. It’s a level playing field.

Wonder how much other countries spend on this?

[Col]

government couldnt do anything [/b]for our benefit even if they wanted to because of Brussels sticking their dirty little fingers in our pies.


Not absolutely true---quite simply walk away from it and tear up any tosh about it in U.K. law as these gimps [our government] are the legislators.

What are the E.U. muppets going to do ????---invade us , stop their own businesses here, surround our islands---I'd like to know exactly what they would do---mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm let me think !!!!

Oh yeah---foook all ;D within minutes they would be at each others throats --brilliant :)

Clearly this is the only sensible and least cost solution to the E.U. spectre

All in favour say 'Aye' 8-)

[Crosbie]

But any UK citizen could move to another European and do the same. It’s a level playing field.

Wonder how much other countries spend on this?

Thats the point tho, foreign nationals flock to this country for one reason or another ;) and in large numbers from some and a good portion claim benefits(summising from what i see around me). How many british do you think would leave this country to go to another that offers less than they do here? Go on have a guess. Not only that i dont think benefits claims in this country extend to paying for plane or euro tunnel fares ;). It should be that an imigrant to any country that wishes to claim benefits has their benefit paid by their own government/tax payers and not us!

[Snowy]

I think it's a far too complicated a situation for many people to have a true understanding and therefore informed opinion on what would really be the right way to go. And even then there would still be differing views. If it really was that simple we would'nt be in this situation. We vote the government in, we all knew which parties wanted to join and which did'nt so we got what the majority voted for (or more accurately, the party with the biggest individual collection of minority votes). I certainly don't have anywhere near enough knowledge to form an informed opinion. Its easy to pick on just one part of an argument that we perceive as being negative and then come to the conclusion that the whole thing is bad.

The only thing I would prefer us to do is make our minds up which it's going to be. We are either in or out - all this sitting on the fence with one foot in and one foot out is never going to work longterm.

My uninformed opinion is that we should be in Europe and join the Euro. I can't see the the former giant that was Great Britain decades ago being able to survive against a United Europe (not now but will be at some point in the future I'm sure) the USA, China, India and the other rapidly developing countries in Asia. We don't manufacture hardly anything anymore, we are a service economy and I don't think we would survive on our own.

[Crosbie]

We have become a service economy because all our industry, manufacturing, inventions are being shipped to these other developing possible future super powers as the labour is far cheaper thus making materials and the whole process cheaper. The whole world if focused on making a 'fast buck' and lost sight of the bigger picture.

It is because of this 'service economy' that we are now effectivly labeled that I wholey believe if we had joined the euro back in 99 or 2005/6 we would be in a similar situation to Greece. The Germans have clearly never had faith in it but fortunatlry for them their government at the time had a contingency plan and stashed vast amounts of deutsche mark. I would not be supprised if the Germans pull out and revert back to the DM in the first half of 2012.

[Snowy]

You may well be right historically, but the clock cannot be reversed. I just think that if we pull out, the first thing to happen is that Europe will close ranks and really leave us out in the cold. Now, we may all think that's preferable to our current situation, but we would have to face the consequences. I would imagine that pretty quickly, Frankfurt would take over the entire banking sector within Europe (yes, all those nasty bankers), taking away one of our single biggest invisible earnings potential and export markets. Everyone looks after their own, so if you are out of the family, you have to be prepared to live on your own.

[Crosbie]

I agree we would be out on our own with none or next to no help and this could be difficult for 5 years maybe 10 BUT
The next 5 to 10 years are not going to be plain sailing anyway.

But more importantly this country would not have its hands tied by european laws including all the ludicrus human rights, animal rights, health and safety red tape etc, the list is endless.

Money would become available from not having to provide plush new prisions, paying out compensation to every tom dick and harry for apparent infringement of their 'human rights', you can include in this the idiots burglars who are injured by property owners during criminal acts (subject to laws being passed in this country with currently wouldnt stand a chance) Simple cut and dry cases saving the tax payers a fortune in courts bills. Imigrants who are in this country claiming benefits with no intensions to work are either offered a job or told to leave (currently against their 'human rights'). Criminal imigrants are deported without even getting close to a UK prison - again saving the tax payer a fortune but also currently against their 'human rights'.

Farmers would also see subsidies rather than it all going to the French farmers - We could - We would survive! WE ARE BRITISH. ;)

I cant see how not being part of europe would not benefit the UK short or long term. :o

[Snowy]

I can't really judge either way as I don't know enough about global economics. However I look at this way. I don't believe that in 500 years time there will be an England or a Russia or a United States of America in todays terms or thinking. I believe the only way the world will survive (if it survives) will be to one day become united and work as a whole. Or it dies. This process is purely an economic version of the Darwinian theory of evolution which I personally also prescribe to. Therefore the only unknown factor is timescale. The history books of the 25th century will summarise what we are going through now in one or two paragraphs. I really do think all we are going through now is a change towards a single global economy which will inevitably result in a single State, Federation or whatever you want to call it. Yes, it will be a bumpy road, but overtime the trend is there to see. In my opinion. I might well be wrong ( and I'm not saying I like the idea either) but I won't be alive to know it ;)

[FJ_Biker]

Crosbie I agree with Snowys point of view. Virtually all industry would leave the UK as they would have to pay export tariffs to mainland Europe if we pulled out of the EU. Making them less competitive its simple economics.

The Human rights act is here to protect us minimum working hours, minimum pay ect, it’s just some people take the p!ss, the same way as some people on social security lie to get more money, corporate company’s have office’s of accountants and solicitors to avoid tax.


Money would become available from not having to provide plush new prisions, paying out compensation to every tom dick and harry for apparent infringement of their 'human rights', you can include in this the idiots burglars who are injured by property owners during criminal acts (subject to laws being passed in this country with currently wouldnt stand a chance) Simple cut and dry cases saving the tax payers a fortune in courts bills. Imigrants who are in this country claiming benefits with no intensions to work are either offered a job or told to leave (currently against their 'human rights'). Criminal imigrants are deported without even getting close to a UK prison - again saving the tax payer a fortune but also currently against their 'human rights'.

This all sound to me like Daily Mail newspaper stuff. Having never been to prison in the UK or Europe I cannot really comment on prison life. I don’t know enough about the history of the laws to know if a lot off these issues are hangovers from old laws or legislation that has been modified since the human rights act. It’s not a simple subject and has know quick fix but is good at getting knee-jerk reactions.



Farmers would also see subsidies rather than it all going to the French farmers - We could - We would survive! WE ARE BRITISH

We get a big chunk of money back from the EU for this.

When Thatcher was in charge the Tory party split the majority of this up between the big Land owners and corporate companies. The small person misses out again in the UK

There is a lot of Info on corporate companies and their greed with food subsides world wide that can be found on this blog. It’s a shocking read in places.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/felicitylawrence

My view is we are better off in the UK in Europe than out. We have been spoon fed lots of small tabloid stories about mad legislation (some of it is daft if it is true?) we are too busy believing this and missing the bigger picture.

[redken1]

I think it's a far too complicated a situation for many people to have a true understanding and therefore informed opinion on what would really be the right way to go. And even then there would still be differing views. If it really was that simple we would'nt be in this situation. We vote the government in, we all knew which parties wanted to join and which did'nt so we got what the majority voted for (or more accurately, the party with the biggest individual collection of minority votes). I certainly don't have anywhere near enough knowledge to form an informed opinion. Its easy to pick on just one part of an argument that we perceive as being negative and then come to the conclusion that the whole thing is bad.

The only thing I would prefer us to do is make our minds up which it's going to be. We are either in or out - all this sitting on the fence with one foot in and one foot out is never going to work longterm.

My uninformed opinion is that we should be in Europe and join the Euro. I can't see the the former giant that was Great Britain decades ago being able to survive against a United Europe (not now but will be at some point in the future I'm sure) the USA, China, India and the other rapidly developing countries in Asia. We don't manufacture hardly anything anymore, we are a service economy and I don't think we would survive on our own.

Even if Ted Heath’s Tories had secured over 50 per cent of the votes cast at the 1970 general election, he would still not have had a mandate to join the then named European Economic Community (EEC), as he did in 1973. Heath was not standing on a single issue and the electorate vote for different parties for many different reasons. Heath was defeated at the subsequent election of 1974 and his successor Harold Wilson held a referendum on the EEC in 1975, which obviously went the way of the yes camp.

At this stage it’s important to note that the EEC was created with the single aim of bringing economic integration and a single market, hence the term common market. That’s what the British people voted yes for in 1975. In November 1993 the leaders of the member states signed the Maastrict Treaty and the European Union was born with far reaching powers over and above its original economic remit.

A lot of water has passed under the bridge since we joined 38 years ago and the fact is that the British people have been denied the chance to say yae or nae to the EU superstate in its current form. If I was given the chance I would most certainly vote for withdrawal. The unaccountable Eurocrats wouldn’t like it (tough sh*t) but, our democratically elected politicians could put this issue to bed one way or the other.

[Snowy]

History is what it is and cast in stone. It may be possible to dismantle the entire system and pull the UK out of the EU however, I don't believe that would be in our best interests even if it were possible. Maybe it would have been right not to join in the first place, who knows, but I don't believe its possible to reverse whats been done already. The goal posts have moved elsewhere since Heath, Wilson and Thatcher were on the playing field.

[redken1]

History is what it is and cast in stone. It may be possible to dismantle the entire system and pull the UK out of the EU however, I don't believe that would be in our best interests even if it were possible. Maybe it would have been right not to join in the first place, who knows, but I don't believe its possible to reverse whats been done already. The goal posts have moved elsewhere since Heath, Wilson and Thatcher were on the playing field.

That's my whole point Graeme. All the doubters like me would have to shut up and accept the EU if it was the will of the British people. I suspect that all the 3 mainstream pro-Europe parties won't hold a referendum for fear of defeat.

[Mark_Able]

I think it's a far too complicated a situation for many people to have a true understanding and therefore informed opinion on what would really be the right way to go. And even then there would still be differing views. If it really was that simple we would'nt be in this situation. We vote the government in, we all knew which parties wanted to join and which did'nt so we got what the majority voted for (or more accurately, the party with the biggest individual collection of minority votes). I certainly don't have anywhere near enough knowledge to form an informed opinion. Its easy to pick on just one part of an argument that we perceive as being negative and then come to the conclusion that the whole thing is bad.

The only thing I would prefer us to do is make our minds up which it's going to be. We are either in or out - all this sitting on the fence with one foot in and one foot out is never going to work longterm.

My uninformed opinion is that we should be in Europe and join the Euro. I can't see the the former giant that was Great Britain decades ago being able to survive against a United Europe (not now but will be at some point in the future I'm sure) the USA, China, India and the other rapidly developing countries in Asia. We don't manufacture hardly anything anymore, we are a service economy and I don't think we would survive on our own.

Even if Ted Heath’s Tories had secured over 50 per cent of the votes cast at the 1970 general election, he would still not have had a mandate to join the then named European Economic Community (EEC), as he did in 1973. Heath was not standing on a single issue and the electorate vote for different parties for many different reasons. Heath was defeated at the subsequent election of 1974 and his successor Harold Wilson held a referendum on the EEC in 1975, which obviously went the way of the yes camp.

At this stage it’s important to note that the EEC was created with the single aim of bringing economic integration and a single market, hence the term common market. That’s what the British people voted yes for in 1975. In November 1993 the leaders of the member states signed the Maastrict Treaty and the European Union was born with far reaching powers over and above its original economic remit.

A lot of water has passed under the bridge since we joined 38 years ago and the fact is that the British people have been denied the chance to say yae or nae to the EU superstate in its current form. If I was given the chance I would most certainly vote for withdrawal. The unaccountable Eurocrats wouldn’t like it (tough sh*t) but, our democratically elected politicians could put this issue to bed one way or the other.

Well said our Ken... ;)

[JAYJAY]

I'm rather afraid it may be too late to leave!! The EU is by far our biggest customer/market. It is not only production industry that is being moved to cheaper workforces - so is our hyped service industry.

With the biggest part of our employment and possible growth coming from small and new businesses we cannot afford to lose our biggest market, our biggest and nearest export market. Our heavy industries which traded as world leaders were decimated in the Thatcher years.

We depend on being a part of the EU for inward investment for manufacturing from foreign countries because we gave up on our own. Plenty of famous examples - Honda in Swindon just one example.

Germany being held up as an example? Massive foreign investment and help following the last war helped rebuild their industries - The trade union bank becoming their biggest bank with the interests of it's members a driving force, state support of their revived industries - all these things combined to produce their strong economy, things we lacked - the fault is ours and our rulers, not the EU.

I don't pretend to have the answers but I don't see why we just can't take a leaf out of the French book, if we don't like an EU rule - ignore it!

[JAYJAY]

:-)

[NoYou]

I see Germany being used as example a lot recently both on here and in the news/on the radio but what none of this seems to take into account is that germany had vast ammounts of money pumped into it after the 2WW which bump started their economy and get them to where they are today, without that huge cash injection they would, even now, still be recovering.
The rest of the EU is now heading toward a situation, much like the germans were faced with at that time, but lack the funds of other countries to get back on their feet!
Yes we now rely on other countries imports to keep going and yes if we left the EU we potentialy loose that import, but the thing is while yes we rely on their imports, can they survive without us buyng their goods. When compared to our size/population we are one of the biggest consumers arround, we don't produce anything but we consume more than ever before.
They my not like us pulling out of the EU but I very much doubt it would stop them selling goods to us, they cannot afford to!

[Snowy]

I see Germany being used as example a lot recently both on here and in the news/on the radio but what none of this seems to take into account is that germany had vast ammounts of money pumped into it after the 2WW which bump started their economy and get them to where they are today, without that huge cash injection they would, even now, still be recovering.
The rest of the EU is now heading toward a situation, much like the germans were faced with at that time, but lack the funds of other countries to get back on their feet!
Yes we now rely on other countries imports to keep going and yes if we left the EU we potentialy loose that import, but the thing is while yes we rely on their imports, can they survive without us buyng their goods. When compared to our size/population we are one of the biggest consumers arround, we don't produce anything but we consume more than ever before.
They my not like us pulling out of the EU but I very much doubt it would stop them selling goods to us, they cannot afford to!

So, on that basis, who needs who more? Not a good economic platform being a net importer. If we leave the EU, our service industry would suffer enormously in my view and since we don't manufacture much anymore, where is the revenue going to come from for us to buy all these imports? If we're broke, we can't buy anything so the EU would just carry on without the UK's involvement. I think we need Europe more than Europe needs us.

[Swanny]

Looks like Germany might be going back to the Mark


Germany To Leave The Euro?
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=195126

[Snowy]

That rumour has been around for years, even I remember it :)

[redken1]

That rumour has been around for years, even I remember it :)

Graeme, I doubt that the German people will continue to support a bail-out of countries such as Greece. I don't think it is a matter of if the Euro collapses but when.

[NoYou]

So, on that basis, who needs who more? Not a good economic platform being a net importer. If we leave the EU, our service industry would suffer enormously in my view and since we don't manufacture much anymore, where is the revenue going to come from for us to buy all these imports? If we're broke, we can't buy anything so the EU would just carry on without the UK's involvement. I think we need Europe more than Europe needs us.


Oh no doubt its a bad situation to be in, but is it any worse than the situation we will be in with the EU 10 years from now?
Thr way I see it, one way or another, we ned to restart production in the UK. So long as our consumption outweighs our production to the extent that it does currently, I very much doubt we will get very far.
You ask where the funds to continue importing will come from if we leave the EU? The question you should be asking is where are the funds coming from now?! The awnser is... nowhere... we have no money yet we carry on like nothing is wrong through a combination of tea and tutting!
We have no money yet we manage to ****inue spending it!
Although we may be in a bad situation and maybe a slightly worse situation if we leave the EU, will our situation not get even worse by remaining part of thr EU? Even now greece is awaiting the EU to turn arround and ignore the vast ammount of money that greece owes in debts, although it may not be affecting us is a great way at current you have to wonder how long it will be before it does!
By leave the EU now instead of waiting for it to collapse of its own accord we can potentialy get our economy sorted out much sooner, just a small exanple of the potential we are wasting in the country is with farms, we have vast ammounts of farm land that is completely unused, and what is used much of everything that is produced goes unused! If we took advantage of all that england had to offer us and stopped paving over it to make homes for the people flocking over from the rest of the EU we would very quickly become a self sufficient country again. Once we get there we can then start producing products for export again and get back to earning the title of GREAT Britian!

[Snowy]

So, on that basis, who needs who more? Not a good economic platform being a net importer. If we leave the EU, our service industry would suffer enormously in my view and since we don't manufacture much anymore, where is the revenue going to come from for us to buy all these imports? If we're broke, we can't buy anything so the EU would just carry on without the UK's involvement. I think we need Europe more than Europe needs us.


Oh no doubt its a bad situation to be in, but is it any worse than the situation we will be in with the EU 10 years from now?
Thr way I see it, one way or another, we ned to restart production in the UK. So long as our consumption outweighs our production to the extent that it does currently, I very much doubt we will get very far.
You ask where the funds to continue importing will come from if we leave the EU? The question you should be asking is where are the funds coming from now?! The awnser is... nowhere... we have no money yet we carry on like nothing is wrong through a combination of tea and tutting!
We have no money yet we manage to ****inue spending it!
Although we may be in a bad situation and maybe a slightly worse situation if we leave the EU, will our situation not get even worse by remaining part of thr EU? Even now greece is awaiting the EU to turn arround and ignore the vast ammount of money that greece owes in debts, although it may not be affecting us is a great way at current you have to wonder how long it will be before it does!
By leave the EU now instead of waiting for it to collapse of its own accord we can potentialy get our economy sorted out much sooner, just a small exanple of the potential we are wasting in the country is with farms, we have vast ammounts of farm land that is completely unused, and what is used much of everything that is produced goes unused! If we took advantage of all that england had to offer us and stopped paving over it to make homes for the people flocking over from the rest of the EU we would very quickly become a self sufficient country again. Once we get there we can then start producing products for export again and get back to earning the title of GREAT Britian!

George, your optimistic enthusiasm is a credit to you.....can you bottle some of it up and send it by courier to a cynical old fart? That would be me by the way :)

[redken1]

I thought the anti-EU camp are the cynics ;)

[Snowy]

I thought the anti-EU camp are the cynics ;)

It purely depends on which side of the fence you are sitting :)

[NoYou]

Hehe being optimistic is the only way I can keep may sanity, I've grown up in a mess of a country and as far as I can see the only way is up so let's get moving xD

[Nooj]

I'm all for the EU. Just not the one on offer.

I don't think we'll ever have a self sufficient manufacturing based economy again, the reason we were world rulers in production and engineering was because we had a vast empire, so had access to cheap labour and materials. Since returning control of those countries to the people that actually live there, we no longer have a mass of natural resources and labour to plunder.

America is doing just this now, all the countries America has recently invaded as part of it's 'war on terror' have masses of resources modern western technologies need. And most of them have governments the US helped put in place to start with to act as local puppets, empire building by the back door basically.

As a stand-alone country, we're screwed. I can't think of one thing we have to offer the rest of the world that can't be bought somewhere else. There needs to be a unified Europe to remain independent of China and India's rapidly expanding economies and America's war-mongering and we need to be part of it or we'll get eaten alive, together we stand - divided we fall.

However, it's abundantly clear that the EU as it stands is a complete mess. A lot of that is down to the varied tribes, languages and customs present. In North America you can drive from one side of the continent to the other and everyone will speak basically the same, not so over here. But I think the main reason the EU has failed is the people in control creating problem that don't exist, purely so they can then 'solve' them later with bull**** legislation and so justify their extremely well paid jobs.

'Spare thumb' manager syndrome basically, there's at least one in every big company and thousands spread throughout the Euro government (and the governments of all member states), constantly renaming, restructuring and generally wasting resources in order to hide their own pointlessness. Get rid of them and a lot of the 'problems' will vanish, I'm sure.

The latest EU bike legislation proposals are a prime example of this. They've all but admitted there is no real evidence to justify the stupid rules they want to introduce, so are now using 'theory' to justify the rulings. Basically, they're now making stuff up, creating problems that aren't there in order to keep their jobs. (http://www.righttoride.eu/?p=7691)

[Swanny]

Sept. 12 (Bloomberg) -- Pippa Malmgren, president and founder of Principalis Asset Management, talks about the risk of bank failures and sovereign default in Europe. She speaks with Maryam Nemazee on Bloomberg Television's "The Pulse."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRv1OLI1Gds