Today's main news story

[redken1]

The Institute for Fiscal Studies forecasts two years "dominated by a large decline" in incomes, pushing 600,000 more children into poverty,
By 2013 there will be 3.1 million children in poverty in the UK, according to the IFS projections.
The IFS says that in 2010, 2.5 million children and 2.1 million working-age parents were living in "absolute" poverty.
But it warns that in the next two years poverty levels will get worse.
By 2013, the IFS predicts the number of children in absolute poverty will rise by 600,000, peaking at 3.1 million, along with 2.5 million working-age parents and four million working-age adults without children.
The report, funded by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, also confirms that targets set in 2010 to cut absolute child poverty by 2020 to 5% are likely to be missed by a wide margin - with the IFS forecasting it will be 23%.

If these predictions prove to be correct, nearly one out of four British children will be living in poverty by 2020.

[wiltshire builders]

There is only so much we/the government can do.
When you read the above statement, you imagine a poor urchin fending for himself as his single parent works 3 jobs to make ends meet.
I visulise the families that I visit to fit free central heating systems, sat on their asses, watching a tv so big it wouldn't look out of place in piccadilly circus, beating the **** out of their todler because they touched their new tatoo and saying "I f'ing told her not to". Looking down at the unmowed lawn and realising i've just stood on a used nappy and trying to avoid the two dogs that are intent on tearing chunks out of my leg.
Obviously there are exceptions to both rules, but the way I see it, build a bigger safety net and the more people will dive in.
Much like the MP's expense accounts, The welfare system needs to be streamlined so people stop abusing it and more importantly the people who need it most are not slipping through.

[Rabb]

There is only so much we/the government can do.
When you read the above statement, you imagine a poor urchin fending for himself as his single parent works 3 jobs to make ends meet.
I visulise the families that I visit to fit free central heating systems, sat on their asses, watching a tv so big it wouldn't look out of place in piccadilly circus, beating the **** out of their todler because they touched their new tatoo and saying "I f'ing told her not to". Looking down at the unmowed lawn and realising i've just stood on a used nappy and trying to avoid the two dogs that are intent on tearing chunks out of my leg.
Obviously there are exceptions to both rules, but the way I see it, build a bigger safety net and the more people will dive in.
Much like the MP's expense accounts, The welfare system needs to be streamlined so people stop
abusing it and more importantly the people who need it most are not slipping through.

Yep - this has been my experience too!
We have many injustices in our society but, some will continue to take the p1$$ until they are reigned in!

[NoYou]

This also depends on what you consider "poverty", this was on the radio earlier and I was getting serioiusly pi55ed off with parents who were claiming to be in "poverty" because they couldn't afford to buy their child a computer or go on holidays!
Don't know about anybody else but that doesn't sound like poverty, it sounds like badly planned shagging! If you can't afford to give a child the quality of life you think is suitable then don't have kids until your situation has changed... seems like simple logic to me.
Yes we,re in hard economic times and sacrifices have to be made, if that means you don't have a computer then maybe... I don't know... have your kids play outside?! I didn't have a PC til I was about 14 and I'm part of the "internet generation" yet not once didn't I feel I was in poverty or in any way at a disadvantage compared with other people.

Everybody has become so used to a particular standard of life that their concept of what "poverty" is seems to be vasty distorted.
As WB says obv everybody is in a different situation and you can't mark everyone the same but.. I think this report is very misleading.

[Toph]

Ken, I live in a well established..(old!!) residential housing estate in Trowbridge.
Most of the houses are freehold, owned by people like myself who have worked their arse off, never claiming a bloody thing off the state, paying their way, praying for the day that after 25 years of mortgage payments their little pile will be theirs.
Next door to me is a house identical to mine.
It is owned by a "buy to rent" entrepreneur who has a portfolio of houses , she makes them available to the DHSS for rent.
I could now bore you all with the tales of the half headed scum, drop outs, wino's, drug dealers, that the local council have inflicted on me in the last 10 years, but I'll concentrate on one.(the pattern is pretty similar in all cases.)
the lady in question had 4 children, all by different fathers, never worked a day in her life, she had a house, heating, benefits, she had a 48 inch tv, ran a BMW car, she had a rotweiler dog, sky TV, ETC, ETC.

Sorry mate, don't give me the sob story about the underclass,
I would love a BMW and a 48 inch tv.... but I work and pay taxes..
All I can think is... Who's the twat?
Maybe we all should say bugger it, the state will look after me.
But where would the money come from??

[470four]

Ken, I live in a well established..(old!!) residential housing estate in Trowbridge.
Most of the houses are freehold, owned by people like myself who have worked their arse off, never claiming a bloody thing off the state, paying their way, praying for the day that after 25 years of mortgage payments their little pile will be theirs.
Next door to me is a house identical to mine.
It is owned by a "buy to rent" entrepreneur who has a portfolio of houses , she makes them available to the DHSS for rent.
I could now bore you all with the tales of the half headed scum, drop outs, wino's, drug dealers, that the local council have inflicted on me in the last 10 years, but I'll concentrate on one.(the pattern is pretty similar in all cases.)
the lady in question had 4 children, all by different fathers, never worked a day in her life, she had a house, heating, benefits, she had a 48 inch tv, ran a BMW car, she had a rotweiler dog, sky TV, ETC, ETC.

Sorry mate, don't give me the sob story about the underclass,
I would love a BMW and a 48 inch tv.... but I work and pay taxes..
All I can think is... Who's the twat?
Maybe we all should say bugger it, the state will look after me.
But where would the money come from??


+1

Poverty my ass...

Unfortunatly as a male I am condemned to having to work 5 days a week for the rest of my life & not have my life paid for.

You want to see poverty? Go to Africa etc, where they have no food, water etc. Now THAT is a sh!t situation!

Can beat that one Toph, just found out my Neighbour, a Steven Hawkins aged 53 has been found with over 28,313 indecent images of children on his computer. >:( >:( >:(

Some grade 4, some the worst at grade 5, some he took himself! He and his Wife got caught 6 years ago doing the same up in Ipswich, he went to jail and then got moved down here... has pleaded guilty, currently awaiting sentencing in Swindon Crown court.

C***.

[Squashed_Fly]

My partner is a teacher, and the number of girls who's ambition it is to have a baby so they can get a flat genuinly makes me feel sick.

G3o is right - if you can't afford children, WEAR A F*CKING CONDOM!


You want to see poverty? Go to Africa etc, where they have no food, water etc.

Agreed! Not when you can afford the latest games console!

[Col]

does yer fookin head in ::)

Really is time to introduce a 'Breeding Licence' whereby the potential breeders are assessed as to their suitability to produce a future worthwhile citizen who would incur basic rearing cost to the State --- breed without a licence and you will get nowt 8-)--controversial ?? maybe ;)

[Squashed_Fly]

Controvertial maybe, but a damn good idea!

Everyone gets sterilised at birth, with a free op to reverse the procedure so long as you can prove you are worthy to be parents, and can afford the bloody kids!

It amazes me how you have to put in hours of lessons to learn to drive and pass a test, or go to university/apprenticeships etc and have qualifications to do professional jobs, yet any moron with working genitals can pop out a child with no pre-requisites, skills, knowledge or training....

I'll shut up now before I get up too high on my horse and offend anyone!

[BladeTriple]

Unfortunatly as a male I am condemned to having to work 5 days a week for the rest of my life & not have my life paid for.

You want to see poverty? Go to Africa etc, where they have no food, water etc. Now THAT is a sh!t situation!




Nice touch , because as a female am I just going to give up at some point in my life and let some bloke look after me ?!?!!? Er nope even if I hadn't been a man hating lesbian ;D ;D ;D that still wouldn't happen I've worked hard all my life, served my country for the last 19 years will continue to do so for antother 3 until mandatory retirement and as we speak I am looking at a future career / careers that will keep me in the lifestyle in which I am accustomed.... Most women actually work hard all their working lives too .....

Part 2 , agreed on the Africa part, my partner is a Zimbo and since Mugabe got in , things have got worse, they took the farms back from many of the whites and production has dropped massively, all across the African continent as well as other 3rd world countries there is real poverty..

I remember driving through Skopje in Macedonia in February 1999 prior to us moving into Kosovo. There were regularly kids younger than school age out begging bare foot, wearing nothing more than rags in sub zero temperatures , in weather you wouldn't put a dog out in over here!

I recall passing their home later in the year, near where the Log Support Battalion were based (for any of you there at the time ) and they lived in a ramshakle compound with lots of other kids along with their parents in what looked like the wrinkly tin huts that you see in the ghettos in movies about South Africa, it shocked me to see that europeans could be living in such squalor.

There are far too many 'what can my country do for me' types out there who will never lift a finger more than to sign on for the rest of their lives... Even worse that we let 1000s more in who have the same attitude from abroad. It should be a case of if you haven't worked in 18 months (lets be fair as there are some jobs out there) community service for your benefits unless you are genuinely unable to work for health reasons.

I come from one of the areas of highest unemployment in the country, near Middlesbrough. My uncle was made redundant when they closed the steel works, the burning heart of Teesside, did my uncle sit on his @rse at 52 thinking he was on the scrap heap ? Nope he got out there, did his licensee course and now runs his old local.

Granted , there are more people than jobs out there right now, however 'Poverty should be described as whether you are looking SERIOUSLY at putting food on the table or the heating on , not 'Do I buy the latest iPhone, big TV, go to Costa-del-Chav with my kids at £200 per head for a fortnight'

For real poverty in this country maybe we should be looking at our aging generations who have to live on tiny state hand outs having worked hard all their lives , many of those having put their lives on the line for this country back in 1939 to 1945.... TBH they would be better off in prison, at least they would get 3 meals a day, a warm bed, heating , regular contact with others and a bit of exercise every day and a television in their room!

Rant over!

[Swanny]

Kids of today have no idea.
Anyone that can afford to own a mobile phone today has no right to claim "Poverty"

[Harry87]

This report is basically saying that 1 in 4 children will be chavs by 2020. Seems like it already. If you want proof, take a walk outside.

[Crosbie]

A definition of poverty commonly used by one Professor Peter Townsend who was the Professor of International Social Policy at the London School of Economics.

Poverty - Individuals, families and groups in the population can be said to be in poverty when they lack the resources to obtain the types of diet, participate in the activities, and have the living conditions and amenities which are customary, or are at least widely encouraged and approved, in the societies in which they belong.

Surely the last bit cant be true. I gues you caould say it is widely encouraged/approved/customary within our society to have mobile phones, digital TV service, broadband, TVs in two or more room in a house, games consoles, laptop/pc or even both, a car - maybe two, an en-suite to your master bedroom, a holiday...... where do you draw the line? None of the above are a necessity and nore is it your right to own. If you can afford to have the above you surely cant be poverty stricken. according to the statement above you can be >:( >:( >:(

[Swanny]

What sort of society do we live in that poverty is gauged by whether or not you have a mobile phone etc rather than food and somewhere to live???

Life is not about owning things.

Crazy place :o

[FJ_Biker]

As Kens comment says it will be 1 in 4 children will be in poverty, this means a lot of children with working parents.

[Toph]

I thought the welfare state was set up as a safetynet, to help people in financial or social difficulties through no fault of their own.
I personally totally agree we should help people in genuine need, but not to subsidise the idle and feckless, who treat the social security system as a life choice.

[Nelly]

To put the cat amoung the pigeons...

In the town where i work, a local lady walked into the council saying that she couldn't cope with her kids.
The long story broken down is that (wait for it)
The Council paid to have her kids "looked after" for a couple of weeks for her. They then paid for a holiday for her for a week in the sun. As she was alone, they also paid 50% toward her best friend going with her to keep her company.... LOL Winner!

[Last Train]

:o :o

[Swanny]

It's even worst in America

More than 6 million Americans are set to lose federal unemployment benefits in 2012, with 1.8 million running out in January alone, according to new figures from the National Employment Law Project.

http://www.infiniteunknown.net/2011/10/11/more-than-6-million-americans-to-lose-unemployment-benefits-in-2012/

[wiltshire builders]

The problem is that the people who need it most don't know or are unable to access the benifits that they're entitled to.
Meanwhile there are people who are working the system for all it's worth.
It's exactly like "the rich are getting richer, and the poor are getting poorer" except it's "the vunerable are getting more vunerable and the srcoungers are getting more.....scroungy?" Whatever, you know what i'm getting at.
Coruption isn't just confined to the higher echilons of society.

[Andybusa]

Tis a terrible thing, poverty, however I'm running a kiddies "get to know chimneys" forum at Chippenham Town Hall this weekend. Maybe it could interest a few of our members?

[NoYou]

If it were up to me, after 18 months of being on benefits without a valid and provable reason for not being able to get a job then you get cut off.
I am proof that jobs aren't as thin on the ground as everybody makes out, in the 12 months i've lived in Salisbury i've had 3 jobs and a further 2 job interviews that i turned down when offered a full time position!
The problem isn't that there are no jobs its that it is easier for people to sit on their arse and scrounge off the government who is so full of human rights and political correct BS that they can't see they're being had!
If you've not got a job after 18 months of being on benefits you either get cut off, join one of the armed forces or get shot in the face! You can choose which ever you like but "none of the above" is not an option!
If you have kids and choose option #3, then the children get put in for adoption! Sorted!

[DaytonaDog]

A Sense of Perspective

Amid all the doom and gloom I thought I would post these set of statistic to put a perspective on just how bad things apparently are at present!!

If we could shrink the earth's population to a village of precisely 100 people, with all the existing human ratios remaining the same, it would break down on a per person scale accordingly... There would be:
57 Asians
21 Europeans, 14 from the Western Hemisphere, both north and south
8 Africans
52 would be female 48 would be male
70 would be non-white 30 would be white
70 would be non-Christian 30 would be Christian
89 would be heterosexual 11 would be homosexual
6 people would possess 59% of the entire world's wealth and all 6 would be from the United States.
80 would live in substandard housing
70 would be unable to read
50 would suffer from malnutrition
1 would be near death; 1 would be near birth 1 (yes, only 1) would have a college education
1 would own a computer
When one considers our world from such a compressed perspective, the need for acceptance, understanding and education becomes glaringly apparent. The following is also something to ponder... If you woke up this morning with more health than illness...you are more blessed than the million who will not survive this week.
If you have never experienced the danger of battle, the loneliness of imprisonment, the agony of torture, or the pangs of starvation ... you are ahead of 500 million people in the world.

If you can attend an idealogical meeting without fear of harassment, arrest, torture, or death...you are more blessed than three billion people in the world.

If you have food in the refrigerator, clothes on your back, a roof overhead and a place to sleep...you are richer than 75% of this world. If you have money in the bank, in your wallet, and spare change in a dish someplace ... you are among the top 8% of the world's wealthy.

If your parents are still alive and still married ... you are very rare, even in the United States and Canada. If you can read this article of perspective, you are more fortunate than over two billion people in the world that cannot read at all. Of course, as I see the world today, perhaps that's not such a bad thing.

[wiltshire builders]

A Sense of Perspective

89 would be heterosexual 11 would be homosexual




Things are going to get a little awkward! :o

[redken1]

Contributions on this debate clearly show that members have differing views on the definition of poverty and rightly so. Hopefully however, the following will bring some clarity regarding the findings of the respected IFS. Their report, from which I quoted, uses the technical term of "absolute" poverty, which is not about what people can or cannot afford but a measure in relation to other earnings - in this case defined as being below 60% of the median income, adjusted for inflation.

I think it’s important to note that all the children from the predicted households living on 60% below the average wage will be in that position through no fault of their own and a significant number will have parent(s) who are in work.

I believe these predicted figures are alarming and we cannot afford to ignore them. Successive governments set targets to reduce child poverty because they are only too aware of the cost to society and I’m not just talking in financial terms. Let’s not forget that we have entered uncharted waters in terms of the highest youth unemployment since records begun. I just don’t accept the mail and sun editorials that the 2.6 million unemployed (another 100000 announced today) are work-shy.

[470four]

Controvertial maybe, but a damn good idea!

Everyone gets sterilised at birth, with a free op to reverse the procedure so long as you can prove you are worthy to be parents, and can afford the bloody kids!

It amazes me how you have to put in hours of lessons to learn to drive and pass a test, or go to university/apprenticeships etc and have qualifications to do professional jobs, yet any moron with working genitals can pop out a child with no pre-requisites, skills, knowledge or training....

I'll shut up now before I get up too high on my horse and offend anyone!

Agree. :o

It troubles me that for 99.9% of our life we as adults have to endure carrying around testicles, boobs and have to endure the misery of periods (yup, both male and female suffer :D) just incase we may actually need to use them someday?

They should be removable, like panniers? Or velcro? Retractable? When you want to breed (POP) out come your funplums and you're on fullfat rather than skimmed!

[Mark_Able]

Unemployment doesn't go up because people suddenly can't be arsed to work. Standard of living doesn't go down because people can't be arsed to work. In the same way child poverty doesn't go up because people can't be arsed to work. Agreed, there is always going to be spongers in society, but there are also those in genuine need. Everytime this debate comes up, all anyone can do is point out the spongers. What about those in genuine need? I feel lucky that I'm still in business, and keeping afloat, when so many are losing their livelihood. I feel sorry for those who have worked all their life in an industry, that is now getting hit by this recession. Some jobs are very specialised, and trying to find alternative employment, when even low paid jobs are going to the Polish, is not easy. Just my two cents...

[redken1]

Controvertial maybe, but a damn good idea!

Everyone gets sterilised at birth, with a free op to reverse the procedure so long as you can prove you are worthy to be parents, and can afford the bloody kids!

It amazes me how you have to put in hours of lessons to learn to drive and pass a test, or go to university/apprenticeships etc and have qualifications to do professional jobs, yet any moron with working genitals can pop out a child with no pre-requisites, skills, knowledge or training....

I'll shut up now before I get up too high on my horse and offend anyone!

SF, who would you call worthy judges deciding on who is and who is not worthy for parenthood? What about members of John Major's Government? Lecturing the nation with their “Back-to-basics” policy on family values while half the cabinet was involved in affairs.


Even Major himself was revealed, albeit after leaving office, to have had an affair - with fellow Tory frontbencher Edwina Currie.
:o

[wiltshire builders]

Even Major himself was revealed, albeit after leaving office, to have had an affair - with fellow Tory frontbencher Edwina Currie.
:o
Hey, I'm just off to bed. I'm going to have nightmares now!

[Col]

@RedKen Seems to me that,perhaps, the main modernised populations may have reached a watershed in that technology is now responsible for reduced employment needs and must , therefore, accept that large numbers of an increasing population will inevitably be surplus to requirements and we ,society, must recognise that there simply is nothing for 'the surplus' to do. In fact if rapid modernisation of the lower economies happens then it follows that huge numbers of them will also be deemed 'surplus'---there are, of course, many avenues to explore on this subject.

It should be noted that even now the government is continuing to borrow money--the State is bankrupt in all but name and employees of the 'State' have to accept this about their employers. Read that borrowing is set to be £500 billion or whatever half a trillion looks like ;D

I have just arrived from pub [contributing to tax] if this makes no sense ;D ;D drink beer write borrocks you know it makes sense ;)

[Squashed_Fly]

I'll shut up now before I get up too high on my horse and offend anyone!

SF, who would you call worthy judges deciding on who is and who is not worthy for parenthood?

That's obvious isn't it Ken? It would be a panel of judges, made up of Bill Cosby, Jo off of Supernanny, Homer Simpson & Don Corleone. Why Snr Corleone I hear you ask? "Cause if you miss with him, you mess with da family!" ;D

[Jon_W]

Controvertial maybe, but a damn good idea!

Everyone gets sterilised at birth, with a free op to reverse the procedure so long as you can prove you are worthy to be parents, and can afford the bloody kids!

It amazes me how you have to put in hours of lessons to learn to drive and pass a test, or go to university/apprenticeships etc and have qualifications to do professional jobs, yet any moron with working genitals can pop out a child with no pre-requisites, skills, knowledge or training....

I'll shut up now before I get up too high on my horse and offend anyone!

Agree. :o

It troubles me that for 99.9% of our life we as adults have to endure carrying around testicles, boobs and have to endure the misery of periods (yup, both male and female suffer :D) just incase we may actually need to use them someday?

They should be removable, like panniers? Or velcro? Retractable? When you want to breed (POP) out come your funplums and you're on fullfat rather than skimmed!



Ahh a nice bit of eugenics for a wedneday morning.... Eugen Ficher would be proud!

[Swanny]

I think the powers that be are already killing us off with the poisons and chemicals they bombard us with every day

[Swanny]

And just to piss you off a little more they don't pay the same taxes as you and me

- Billionaires to be given free carbon allowances to offset green tax on private jets (Telegraph, Oct. 11, 2011):

Corporate jets used by billionaires the Duke of Westminster and Lord Ashcroft are among the aircraft to be allocated free “carbon allowances” to offset the cost of a new green tax.

Almost 200 corporate jet owners, from oil company ExxonMobil to Starbucks and Iceland Foods, will be awarded free permits to compensate them for the new expense of Europe’s carbon trading scheme for aircraft.

How is that fair???????

http://www.infiniteunknown.net/2011/10/12/billionaires-exempt-from-green-tax-on-private-jets/