Road Accidents

[FJ_Biker]

The BBC website is running an interesting blog on RTA's today
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16030644

The motorbike statistics are here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15975564

Looks like it is safer to ride on a week day
I wonder if the 21 percent we road deaths we account for is calculated on a per vehicle owned or miles traveled or some other data? That's the problem with statistics they only tell one side of a story.

[Squashed_Fly]

I would assume it's safer to ride on a weekday... Provided you ride outside of commuting hours. At weekends, there is more traffic on the road for more of the day....

Not to mention the people that only get chance to drive/ride at weekends making the roads more dangerous...

[Ducatista]

Looks like it is safer to ride on a week day

err no...........it's safer not to be the type of rider that only goes out on summer weekends.


At weekends, there is more traffic on the road for more of the day....

I think you'll find there's generally more traffic in the rush hour.


Not to mention the people that only get chance to drive/ride at weekends making the roads more dangerous...

Ah right, I get it now, it's everyone else making it dangerous :)

Stop being daft :)
it isn't the time of day or day of the week you go out or your age or your gender it's how you ride.

[Ducatista]

I wonder if the 21 percent we road deaths we account for is calculated on a per vehicle owned or miles traveled or some other data?

I think it means that 21% of all the deaths were motorcyclists, simply as that.

[Splash]

Looks like it is safer to ride on a week day

err no...........it's safer not to be the type of rider that only goes out on summer weekends.


At weekends, there is more traffic on the road for more of the day....

I think you'll find there's generally more traffic in the rush hour.


Not to mention the people that only get chance to drive/ride at weekends making the roads more dangerous...

Ah right, I get it now, it's everyone else making it dangerous :)

Stop being daft :)
it isn't the time of day or day of the week you go out or your age or your gender it's how you ride.




+1 to that! 8-)

[wiltshire builders]

it's how you ride[/i].

How would you put that into a statistic?
100% of people who ride dangerously are dangerous?

We are complicated creatures and are very much affected by weather, time and a mirriad of other things.
The more people you interact with on the road the likelyhood of you having an accident increases. It might not be your fault but you are more likely to eventually meet someone who isn't as careful as you because: They're tired, late, don't do mornings, don't do evenings, don't like bad weather, don't like hot weather, they're female ::) or any other number of reasons why some people crash.

[redken1]

There are no easy answers to preventing all RTA’s – if there was there wouldn’t be any.

You can be the safest and most competent rider in the world but, you can’t always avoid a vehicle pulling out in to your path. Sadly, how many times have we heard, “I never saw him/her?”

[Nooj]

It's still safer than horse riding :-)

[Ducatista]

How would you put that into a statistic?

I'm not saying you can put that into a statistic, but I'm sure we have seen and know driver/riders who are nutters/suicidal and others who go to great lengths to invest in their own safety.


they're female Roll Eyes

Well you're treading on dangerous ground there ;)
and of course factually incorrect - which I realise is why you crossed it through ;)


We are complicated creatures and are very much affected by weather, time and a mirriad of other things.
The more people you interact with on the road the likelyhood of you having an accident increases. It might not be your fault but you are more likely to eventually meet someone who isn't as careful as you because: They're tired, late, don't do mornings, don't do evenings, don't like bad weather, don't like hot weather, they're female Roll Eyes or any other number of reasons why some people crash.

I totally agree there are a myriad of factors.
But to pretend that if you stop riding at 2:55 and avoid the 3-6 weekend slot, then you'll be much safer is ridiculous.
The reason why there is a dangerous slot at this time is beacuse all the nutters go out at this time on summer weekends not because of anything to do with where the big hand or the little hand are pointing.

Yes, there are a myriad of factors but you can do something about most of them and you can avoid most problems created by others.

[Ducatista]

but, you can’t always avoid a vehicle pulling out in to your path

Ken, there is a lot you can do.
I'd claim that you can make sure that you are in the correct position (for avoidance, view and being seem), responsive gear, speed etc. most of the time if you took a systematic approach to hazard avoidance.
According to the police most accidents can be avoided by any party.

[Jon_W]

Intersting if a little superficial.

Obviously there are more motorcycle accidents at the weekend..... there are more motorcycles on the road!!!

As to the 21% of fatalities, that comes as no suprise if you think of it.... Motorcyclists are by nature at greater risk of fatality in an accident. It would be interesting to see the total percentage of accidents as this figure will be somewhat lower.



Ducatista. I pray you are never in the position of having a vehicle pull out in front of you as you may come to regret those words.

A good family friend had this happen for the first time a year back. He had been riding for almost 50 years without major incident and was a very skilled rider. He suvived the accident, but will never ride again.

[Ducatista]

I pray you are never in the position of having a vehicle pull out in front of you as you may come to regret those words.

I am not sure exactly which words you are referring to but the fact that "most accidents are avoidable by any party" is a quote from the police.
You might have noticed they have stopped calling them accidents and started calling them collisions as they don't want to imply they are without cause.

I will regret not avoiding an accident if there was anything I could have done and that's why I spend a lot of time practicing and studying a well tried and tested systematic approach to motorcycle control. This doesn't mean I think I'm the bees knees in fact the more I learn the more I recognise my own short comings.

I am sorry your friend was injured in a collision that possibly was totally unavoidable.

However I believe you are doing a grave (and potentially life-threatening) dis service to others on here if you are suggesting that no-one put should any effort into trying to avoid an accident that is potentially avoidable by suggesting that they are all inevitable.

You surely MUST have seen people driving FAR too close together on the motorway so that they cannot possibly stop in the distance they can see to be clear.

[Maz]

Even though I have been riding since September. I have notices the amount of bikers who are dangers to us and themselves. When I am in the car and see a biker who is over taking on a corner or is doing 50 plus and not attempting to slow down coming to a round about because they think they can get through a gap makes me cringe...

I know riders who (obviously are 17) who think they rule the tarmac! Seriously drives me nuts watching act like idiots on bikes! Its them who are our future bikers! Seen one the other day riding like he was on a race track with track suit bottoms and a hoddie on. I just think one day you like look on how stupid you are when your involved in an accident....

ok rant over

[Mark_Able]

Totally agree Maz. There is a certain proportion of riders who are no better than company car drivers. The most common bad riding faults are:-

1. Tailgating. Why? If you hang back you get a better view, and can make up a reasonable gap in no time when it actually comes time to over-take.
2. Over-taking between on-coming traffic. Why? On most occasions, a safe over-take presents itself seconds later. If either the driver being over-taken, or the on-coming driver deviates their line, you're stuffed.
3. High speed filtering. I have seen more accidents occur when a rider is filtering, than at any other time. When a bonnet appears between the line of traffic, you need time to react. Stick below 20mph.
4. Too much speed in the wrong place. Normally because said rider is showing off. Which brings me on to probably my biggest irritation...
5. Other riders trying to impress me with their skills/fast bike. You've got to go a lonnnggg way to impress me. And the road is not the place to do it.... muppet... >:(

[redken1]

but, you can’t always avoid a vehicle pulling out in to your path

Ken, there is a lot you can do.
I'd claim that you can make sure that you are in the correct position (for avoidance, view and being seem), responsive gear, speed etc. most of the time if you took a systematic approach to hazard avoidance.
According to the police most accidents can be avoided by any party.


I agree with you Ducatista, you can lower the risk of being involved in an accident by adopting the safe practices you mentioned.

Interestingly, the Police use the word “most” and not all with reference to the avoidance of accidents.

[wiltshire builders]

but, you can’t always avoid a vehicle pulling out in to your path

Ken, there is a lot you can do.
I'd claim that you can make sure that you are in the correct position (for avoidance, view and being seem), responsive gear, speed etc. most of the time if you took a systematic approach to hazard avoidance.
According to the police most accidents can be avoided by any party.

This is the problem though. If all roads had a 10mph limit and we all had hi viz, all give way junctions were stops and round-a-bouts were trafic light controlled there would be no fatalities on the road. There would also be no bikes as it would be boring as hell.

Yes we need to take responsibility for our actions but you can take all the precautions in the world, if someone doesn't look at a junction or during an overtake you are dead.
Everyone claims to have had a near miss and had to brake hard, but unless you've had one where you were doing everything right and it was so close you didn't even have chance to grab the brake then you don't know what a near miss is. I've had it happen once and playing it over and over in my mind came to the same conclusion. There was nothing within reason that I could've done to protect myself more.
These are the incidents that take lives.

[redken1]

WB, that was exactly the point I was trying to make. Life is full of risks. You can wear a hard-hat and safety boots on a building site, but if some twat drops a brick on your head from the scaffolding above, it's out of your control.

[wiltshire builders]

WB, that was exactly the point I was trying to make. Life is full of risks. You can wear a hard-hat and safety boots on a building site, but if some twat drops a brick on your head from the scaffolding above, it's out of your control.
Too true Ken.
I don't wear a hard hat, steel toes or hi-viz. Why? because I am f*cking good at my job and don't need to. I'm super cautious to the point of being anal.
The "twats" you speak of shouldn't be on our roads, building sites or any other place where they can be a danger. Unfortunatly todays society makes allowances for the feckless and useless by telling them they can achieve anything they want to.
Everyone has rights, but some things should remain a priviledge.

[Ducatista]

If all roads had a 10mph limit and we all had hi viz, all give way junctions were stops and round-a-bouts were trafic light controlled there would be no fatalities on the road. There would also be no bikes as it would be boring as hell.

I agree there's a trade-off, but you don't have to go 10mph everywhere to improve your safety margin.
If you watched or followed some very safe riders you might find they went below the speed limit in some areas e.g. schools and dangerous junctions, but you would find them to be very progressive in other areas.
Having fun and being safe are not mutually exclusive.


There was nothing within reason that I could've done to protect myself more.

I agree there are scenarios in which there is nothing you can do. If you don't accept that then you need to find other more acceptable forms of transport.
Most of us accept inherent risks all the time e.g. when we get on an aeroplance.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to avoid accidents for the majority of the time when they are avoidable.

At the end of the day if you don't accept the inherently dangerous nature of bike riding then you shouldn't ride a bike.
Some of us chose to ride a bike but do every thing we can to make it as safe AND enjoyable as possible.
You can have a lot of fun doing this e.g. track riding.

But where I came in, is that I don't believe you will decrease your chances of having an accident by stopping riding at 3pm on a weekend (because the most dangerous time is 3-6).
You will decrease your chances if you don't ride like the people that only go out at 3-6 on a weekend. It's not about the clock it's about how those individuals are riding.
An analogy is saying - most plane crashes happen on Tuesdays so if I don't fly on a Tuesday I'll be safer.

[wiltshire builders]

[QUOTE]You can have a lot of fun doing this e.g. track riding.

But where I came in, is that I don't believe you will decrease your chances of having an accident by stopping riding at 3pm on a weekend (because the most dangerous time is 3-6).
You will decrease your chances if you don't ride like the people that only go out at 3-6 on a weekend. It's not about the clock it's about how those individuals are riding.
An analogy is saying - most plane crashes happen on Tuesdays so if I don't fly on a Tuesday I'll be safer.

You're implying that people will think that they don't need to be cautious as long as long as they ride at certain times.
What I'm saying and the statistics prove is that you will be safer riding (in the way you described) at certain times.
It stands to reason that if there are less peopl on the roads there is less chance of you coming into contact with one of them. It's just another precaution.
That's why insurance companies ask you what sort of milage you do. The more miles the greater the chance of a collision.

[Mark_Able]

I know people that will watch the bike racing on the telly on a sunny sunday afternoon, then go for a bike ride. I think that'll be between about 3 and 6 o'clock... ::)

[Dabz]

No different to the Easter bank hol weekend each year (especially when Easter is early) - people unwrap their bikes from the winter hibernation and try to ride like they did 5 months ago before the winter break with no regard to cooler Tarmac and rusty riding skills

[Jon_W]

No different to the Easter bank hol weekend each year (especially when Easter is early) - people unwrap their bikes from the winter hibernation and try to ride like they did 5 months ago before the winter break with no regard to cooler Tarmac and rusty riding skills

Far too true!!

[Jon_W]

Even though I have been riding since September. I have notices the amount of bikers who are dangers to us and themselves. When I am in the car and see a biker who is over taking on a corner or is doing 50 plus and not attempting to slow down coming to a round about because they think they can get through a gap makes me cringe...

I know riders who (obviously are 17) who think they rule the tarmac! Seriously drives me nuts watching act like idiots on bikes! Its them who are our future bikers! Seen one the other day riding like he was on a race track with track suit bottoms and a hoddie on. I just think one day you like look on how stupid you are when your involved in an accident....

ok rant over

No rant there Maz. Good sense. Alas the "17" year old rider are usually older in my expierences.

The question I always come back to is, would you drive your car at 100mph weaving in and out of traffic, going into corners deliberalty fast??? in most cases the answer is no.... so why on a bike??

[Jon_W]

I pray you are never in the position of having a vehicle pull out in front of you as you may come to regret those words.

I am not sure exactly which words you are referring to but the fact that "most accidents are avoidable by any party" is a quote from the police.
You might have noticed they have stopped calling them accidents and started calling them collisions as they don't want to imply they are without cause.

I will regret not avoiding an accident if there was anything I could have done and that's why I spend a lot of time practicing and studying a well tried and tested systematic approach to motorcycle control. This doesn't mean I think I'm the bees knees in fact the more I learn the more I recognise my own short comings.

I am sorry your friend was injured in a collision that possibly was totally unavoidable.

However I believe you are doing a grave (and potentially life-threatening) dis service to others on here if you are suggesting that no-one put should any effort into trying to avoid an accident that is potentially avoidable by suggesting that they are all inevitable.

You surely MUST have seen people driving FAR too close together on the motorway so that they cannot possibly stop in the distance they can see to be clear.


I would never be so bold as to say most accidents are avoidable. I agree that the upmost efforts must be taken to see and be seen, but it is very easy for the police and other orgoniseations to look back after the event and suggest that the accident was avoidable.

[BladeTriple]

Totally agree Maz. There is a certain proportion of riders who are no better than company car drivers. The most common bad riding faults are:-

1. Tailgating. Why? If you hang back you get a better view, and can make up a reasonable gap in no time when it actually comes time to over-take.
2. Over-taking between on-coming traffic. Why? On most occasions, a safe over-take presents itself seconds later. If either the driver being over-taken, or the on-coming driver deviates their line, you're stuffed.
3. High speed filtering. I have seen more accidents occur when a rider is filtering, than at any other time. When a bonnet appears between the line of traffic, you need time to react. Stick below 20mph.
4. Too much speed in the wrong place. Normally because said rider is showing off. Which brings me on to probably my biggest irritation...
>:(


Going to agree with all of this and most of what Ducatista said.

I had my off in April , it was UNAVOIDABLE.... it was that or go into oncoming traffic. Another bike broadside on in the road , feet down looking the opposite way who pulls into you in the last second into the path of your escape route is impossible to miss. Had I not had my wits about me, panicked or seized up I'd have gone straight through the centre of the guys bike probably killing both of us if not seriously injuring him, instead I saw my only possible escape route, braked as best as I could while making that evasive manouvre, sadly I still went through the front end of his bike.

The person in question got rider improvement training, even tho I was the injured party and not at fault , once I could put enough pressure on my left wrist and operate a clutch again (about 3 months down the line, the wrist is still down 20% on movement now) I got out and got another bike.

I then paid £1600 to do my CBT and DAS Instructor qualification , then my BMF Blue Riband Riding Qualification. While the Advanced Riding Course was brilliant and improved my cornering, progress etc, learning how to become a Riding Instructor was actually the thing that improved my all round observation as a biker....

It's not just yourself you are watching out for as an instructor, its the hazards in front of and beyond of your students who could be 200m plus away from you, constantly monitoring a huge bubble, hazards that may not effect you could have a huge impact on a baby biker fresh to the roads wobbling along on a 125, this really does test your wits, awareness and observations.

Like I said there are some situations that will be totally unavoidable but you should be able to have enough forewarning to make it as painless as possible or brace yourself for the inevitable.

Part D of the CBT talks about Defensive Riding.... Building up a picture of what is ahead of you, behind you, what could be around the next corner, using all of the senses excluding taste to help you on the road, most of us old and bolds do it without thinking I'd imagine, but you do see some kids and older types who look like all they remember is how to pin it and brake as hard as possible. Some people out there no matter what they drive or ride could do with going back to CBT Basics

[Squashed_Fly]

At weekends, there is more traffic on the road for more of the day....

I think you'll find there's generally more traffic in the rush hour.




Exactly what I said. The rest of the day in the week it's quiet. Weekends are busy for more of the day as pepole are off work, going shopping, visiting family etc, and it's all day. Not just a few hours in the morning and evening. Besides, on the whole people who commute during rush hour, I would imagine, are more aware than those who just pop out for a sunday blast when the weather is nice! But that's just my assumption...

[redken1]

For the sake of the question I wish to pose I will use the Oxford dictionary’s 1st definition of “Accident.” “An unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally.” Unintentionally being the key word here.

Is it possible for the human mind to deliver 100 per cent concentration while executing any task or dealing with any situation or distraction for every waking hour for 365 days a year? If the answer is yes, how many people will go through their whole life without knocking over a cup of tea, tripping over a pavement, hit their thumb with a hammer, etc?

Just a personal opinion and not based on any factual evidence, but I don’t believe that all accidents are avoidable.

[Snowy]

I have knocked over many a cup, tripped over many a time and hammered my thumb more times than I care to remember over the years. Could I have avoided each of these accidents? Yes, probably I think I could have, because I was careless and didn't take enough care over what I was doing or not concentrating at the job in hand. Will I knock over any more cups, trip or hit my hand with a hammer again? Of course I will. Same as I might have an accident on my bike at some point in the future because I take a calculated risk every time I get on a bike with the way I decide to ride it. I don't believe anyone has said all accidents can be avoided, just that our own actions play a part in how much risk we choose to take and therefore how many "accidents" we will have.

[redken1]

Graeme, I am curious as to why the police have dropped the word accident? And how do the police know that “most accidents are avoidable”? Of course I agree that we can all take precautionary measures to lower the risk of an accident in any situation. A road user who pulls out in front of another vehicle has in all probability done so unintentionally, so is it not therefore, fair to say that the accident occurred due to a lack of concentration?

[Snowy]

Graeme, I am curious as to why the police have dropped the word accident? And how do the police know that “most accidents are avoidable”? Of course I agree that we can all take precautionary measures to lower the risk of an accident in any situation. A road user who pulls out in front of another vehicle has in all probability done so unintentionally, so is it not therefore, fair to say that the accident occurred due to a lack of concentration?

Yes, I would agree Ken, in the case where someone pulls out carelessy from a side junction this is almost certainly unintentional. But, if a motorcyclist is coming down the main road, is it inevitable that it will result in an accident (or incident by another definition)? It might well do if the rider does not alter their speed, road position, roll off the throttle, have two fingers on the brake lever etc. If however, the rider does decide to do these things, it might well not. In this case, the riders actions almost certainly will affect the outcome of another roadusers carelessness.

I would imagine it's this kind of scenario the police are referring to by saying that "most accidents are avoidable". If each accident is minutely examined for cause then I would believe it's possible to come up with a way it might have been avoided by alternative actions on someones part. However, in the real world, it's impossible to do this with all the risks we take simply because of the number of risk actions we all take during the course of a normal day.

[Cemorah]

You do not need to be a behavioural scientist to understand this.

Most biking is done on Sundays.

For many this is their only practice on a machine that can clear the national speed limit in first gear. Mix this with relaxed car drivers digesting a large Sunday roast possibly washed down with an ale who may or may not have other distractions in the car:- spouse, kids etc the figures are inevitable. If you ride and don't take this sort of thing into account........... :-/

[redken1]

Good points Graeme - very interesting topic.

[Scotty]

The reason that the Police have dropped the word "accident" is that an accident is a totally random unavoidable occurrence, whereas most RTCs aren't. With the exception of sliding off on an unseen diesel spill for instance (though it could be argued that this is the result of another's negligence), most crashes involve driver error (SMIDSYs etc.) or rider error (TFF or running out of talent). Using "accident" as a label implies that nobody was at fault.

[Ducatista]

I am curious as to why the police have dropped the word accident?

As Scotty said, they don't want to imply they are genuine accidents as most are not.
I was at a talk a few weeks ago with a very experienced police officer who is now a car & bike examiner. He called them "mistakes".
For the record I fully accept that if a deer jumps out right in front of you then you probably can't avoid it and some are unavoidable random occurences.


And how do the police know that “most accidents are avoidable”?

They can measure all sorts of things speed, tyre tread, braking distance (from skid marks), blood alchohol level etc.

As an example if someone had bald tyres, but sufficient distance to stop with legal tyres, then the conclusion is obvious.
Similarly if someone lost control with no other negative factors but was 5 times over the blood alchohol limit, then conclusions can be drawn about the cause.


I would never be so bold as to say most accidents are avoidable.

You and I shouldn't make those claim I agree. I think the police are in a good position to though.


but it is very easy for the police and other orgoniseations to look back after the event and suggest that the accident was avoidable.

Yes they have decades of experience and statistics on their side.
Many accidents involve drugs, drink, illegal tyres, no seat belts. Those that fall into that category are definitely not random unavoidable occurences.
Remember a criminal conviction has to be proved "beyond reasonable doubt" so the police don't just make stuff up for fun, they have very strict criteria certainly at the crinimal level.
A deer jumping out in front of you is a random unavoidable occurence, but poor tyres, lack of braking distance too much alchohol, too much speed are not.

You can personally increase your odds by getting more training. There are some stats to show this and you can get discounts for insurers (and they wouldn't give you money back if they didn't think it as true).