* The Scale of the Universe

[Swanny]

This should keep you busy for 5 mins

http://htwins.net/scale2/

Amazing to think that some people say we are the only planet with life on it ;D

[Mitch9128]

If you look at ALL the factors needed on our planet alone to support life as we know it, it's amazing life exists at all. What amazes me, is some people are not amazed by the wonder of planet earth, and believe sky fairies created it all :(

[Jon_W]

That's great.

[Squashed_Fly]

If you look at ALL the factors needed on our planet alone to support life as we know it, it's amazing life exists at all. What amazes me, is some people are not amazed by the wonder of planet earth, and believe sky fairies created it all :(

Interesting... I happen to believe in God, and personally, it find it a lot more difficult to believe that world around us happened as a 'coincidence of epic proportions'. In my own opinion, there must be some greater force at work - whatever that happens to be...

I don't necessarily believe that God made the world in 7 exact days, or that every biblical word is to be taken literally, which is partly why I don't go to church anymore as so many christians are spoon fed stories and take them (excuse the pun) as gospel! They don't like it much when you question them, and point out any number of inconsistencies in the factual, and spiritual points raised in the bible!

Mind you, people dont like it much when I question anything full stop.... :P

[Mitch9128]

SF, why do you belive in God?

Is it the science is too much to take in, and believing in God is easier?

What greater force can you need than evolution?

Not taking the piss or trying to start a bustup...shorty :) Just interested in why people feel the need to believe in something that has no basis in fact.

[Squashed_Fly]

Evolution is only a theory... One that I happen to belive in I might add.

I actually think science and religion can exist side by side, but you have to take different parts in context of historical timelines and facts.

I have a number of reasons for believing in God, none of which I'm going into on here btw! I don't believe the bible word for word though - it was written by men after all, and the bible itself says that there are no perfect men.... If there were, we wouldn't need God!

[wiltshire builders]

I don't believe in god but when I got into a tank slapper at 90mph, on the wrong side of the road with a lorry coming towards me there was only 1 'person' I was asking for help and it wasn't Charles Darwin.

[Mitch9128]

Evolution is only a theory... One that I happen to belive in I might add.

I actually think science and religion can exist side by side, but you have to take different parts in context of historical timelines and facts.

I have a number of reasons for believing in God, none of which I'm going into on here btw! I don't believe the bible word for word though - it was written by men after all, and the bible itself says that there are no perfect men.... If there were, we wouldn't need God!

Common misconception, scientific theories are mostly proven facts. Evolution whilst a scientific theory, is also fact.
I wonder when god created dinosaurs, did he do that in his own image too?

[Mitch9128]

I don't believe in god but when I got into a tank slapper at 90mph, on the wrong side of the road with a lorry coming towards me there was only 1 'person' I was asking for help and it wasn't Charles Darwin.

Superman?

[Jon_W]

I don't believe in god but when I got into a tank slapper at 90mph, on the wrong side of the road with a lorry coming towards me there was only 1 'person' I was asking for help and it wasn't Charles Darwin.

;D ;D

[smellygerm]

I don't believe in god but when I got into a tank slapper at 90mph, on the wrong side of the road with a lorry coming towards me there was only 1 'person' I was asking for help and it wasn't Charles Darwin.

Superman?

No, SMELLYGERM 8-)

[Squashed_Fly]

What about all of the other scientific 'facts' that have been disproven with the advancements of technology and historical knowledge? It was once a fact that man couldn't fly, or that the world was flat (not strictly true that one, only a small minority actually believed that). There are well researched scientists now that still believe Darwin to be incorrect, and have their own facts and theories as to why.

The simple answer is none of us know the truth or facts. We believe what we believe based on our own experiences and what we are told. Every scientific fact is the outcome of results that have shown that to be true. But in an infinate universe, an infinite number of outcomes is possible, which means eventually, if you had long enough, every fact could be disproved with evidence.

Religion and beliefs, whether in God or Darwin (or anything else) is a deeply personal thing and will be different for everone based on what they have experienced.

That's why I love the bit at the end of Miracle on 34th Street. Very few people when faced with inevitable death, don't pray for some kind of help or salvation... I read that in an article written by someone who used to be an executioner, who found it strange that these hard men had no faith, yet ultimately something inside them made them turn to God when they felt absolutely nothing else could save them...

This is quite an interesting thread... I'm curious to hear other peoples thoughts, so long as they aren't derogatory to anyone elses...

[Squashed_Fly]

I don't believe in god but when I got into a tank slapper at 90mph, on the wrong side of the road with a lorry coming towards me there was only 1 'person' I was asking for help and it wasn't Charles Darwin.

Superman?

No, SMELLYGERM 8-)

Is that because you wear your pants on the outside? ;D

[Dabz]

nah he just takes his clothes off in phoneboxes...

[Squashed_Fly]

I didn't get round to watching that documentary....

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/my-phone-sex-secrets/4od

[Jon_W]

nah he just takes his clothes off in phoneboxes...

Hasn't he been cautioned about that???? ;D

[Mitch9128]

See, i believe, believing in sky fairies is helping to stunt scientific advancement, stopping the poor in some countries living, it's killing people worldwide every day. It makes me angry seeing the hugely wealthy RC church pray for the starving millions in Africa, when if they only got off their arses, they could feed them. Prayer, easier than actually doing something, one day we will end religion.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/godonbrain.shtml

[Squashed_Fly]

I'm with you there. I can't stand religion - it's just a set of rules, designed to control and causes wars because man can't cope with faith and trusts unquestioningly.

Confusing faith, and religion, is something most people do. I have faith, but I'm not religious. I don't use what I believe as a big stick to make other people do what I want, or see things my way (I have the forum for that! ;) ;D )


Of course, there could be no such thing as God - perhaps it's all aliens?

[Jon_W]

or SmellyGerm in his underpats???? :D

[smellygerm]

I didn't get round to watching that documentary....

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/my-phone-sex-secrets/4od


U said not to be derogatory to my bellbreifs , just because People worship my colossus doesn't make me weird
Ps. Please make donations payable to SMELLYGERM toligy. Condomxxxl :P

[Swanny]

Man wasn't created by a god, unless you call visiting aliens god 8-)

[Mitch9128]

I have faith in science SF

One of the greatest living British men today:-

http://www.iperceptive.com/authors/richard_dawkins_quotes.html

Now he is a god :)

[virginie_morisot]

I am a believer in science too. However i dont have a problem if people find comfort in a little baby Jesus, or Krishna, or Allah or anything else.. I only have a problem when this is then used as a tool to control and brainwash, commit crimes against humanity etc etc etc
I suppose religion has been useful to give people something to believe in; and probably for a lot of people this gave them something to hold on to in times of despair, gave life a meaning etc and through our history religion has played an enormous part in controlling people but maybe also implementing certain rules...which were necessary for people to live in societies.. I guess people had to be fearful of some retribution in order to follow rules..
A political , social and economical tool.. a powerful one too when combined with lack of education and the mob factor.. I think i am quite spiritual but not a religious person, despite and maybe because of a religious upbringing !
Yes if i understand what sf meant, i agree private personal beliefs should be respected, but I always had a profound disgust and contempt for institutionalised religion, its hypocrisy. I suppose i am speaking mainly of Catholicism, of i have the best knowledge.

[Mitch9128]

"Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence."

[Harry87]

My Religion? My Ninga!
My bible? - The workshop manual..
The path to righteousness? That country road baby!! :D

[virginie_morisot]

My Religion? My Ninga!
My bible? - The workshop manual..
The path to righteousness? That country road baby!! :D

;D 8-) nice ! :)

[Mitch9128]

My Religion? My Ninga!
My bible? - The workshop manual..
The path to righteousness? That country road baby!! :D


Ninga? Strawberry blonde Kawasaki?

[Geordie Stu]

Scientific evidence outways God for me. Way too much fact about how life on earth has evolved. We're born, we live, we die end of.

[Harry87]

My fail.

Urbandictionary: NINGA
1. The combination of the words Nigga and Ninja.
A Black Ninja.

4. Ninga
A big and hairy Dick. (??????)

You know what I meant ;D Anywaaaay.. Yeah the Universe, it is massive!! :D

A little girl once said:

"My mother always talked to me a lot about the sky. She liked to watch the clouds in the day, and the stars at night... especially the stars. We would play a game sometimes, a game called, what's beyond the sky. We would imagine darkness, or a blinding light, or something else that we didn't know how to name. But of course, that was just a game. There's nothing beyond the sky. The sky just is, and it goes on and on, and we'll play all of our games beneath it."

[virginie_morisot]

i feel quite "taken" by all this.. ;D :P

[Harry87]

Just checked out the link. Laughed at Minecraft world ;D

Those stargazers sure have been busy!! Lots beyond the sky it would seem ;D

[Toph]

I always thought religion is all about who's got the best imaginary friend. :D
If there is some sort of all seeing supreme being up there, then why doesn't he / she show themselves... perform a few miracles, give us all unrefutable proof??
Until then, 'tis all twaddle to me. :)

[Beamer]

I find that many many people need to have faith in something.......some in what they had 'drummed' into them whilst growing up..some, after some awful situations or incidents in their lives and some just get wrapped up into something without realising what it is until its too late.
I do not agree with the types of religion that need to convert those that are vulnerable or not in a mental state to be able to make informed choices.
I believe in what I believe in because I was able to make a choice. It helps me through all my crappy times and believe that all the crappy people out there do have good in them somewhere.
I would never push my 'faith' on others, not even my own children, because they will find their own way of coping with lifes trials and tribulations, I shall just support them and be there for them
I just feel for all those people born in countries that have to believe in what they are told just to be able to survive. The books they follow were generally written donkeys years ago and have been adapted to suit whoever was in power at the time (a bit like chinese whispers) over the years some bits get added and some bits get removed etc.
And finally ::) the way I look at it, you dont have to go to church or a certain special building or follow the words of some book to be classed as a 'good' person....your conscience should be able to tell you whether something you are doing is 'right' or 'wrong'.
I respect anothers choice, the same way I would expect them to respect mine
Keep the faith people hehe ;D

[redken1]

I blame the government ;) :P ;D ::)

[Mitch9128]

So do i Ken http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/9539965.Council_prayers_to_continue/ not only pointless, but no place for this rubbish in politics.

[Jon_W]

I blame the government ;) :P ;D ::)

Seems fair.... Bl**dy tories! :D :P

[Jon_W]

My Religion? My Ninga!
My bible? - The workshop manual..
The path to righteousness? That country road baby!! :D

Amen to that!

[Kevinb]

I stopped believing in God Christmas day 1977 when my dad died. I was 13
If other people need to believe in something thats up to them

Well thats religion done.
How about politics now?

[Mitch9128]

I stopped believing in God Christmas day 1977 when my dad died. I was 13
If other people need to believe in something thats up to them

Well thats religion done.
How about politics now?


Ken has that covered up there ^^ :D

[Kevinb]

I stopped believing in God Christmas day 1977 when my dad died. I was 13
If other people need to believe in something thats up to them

Well thats religion done.
How about politics now?


Ken has that covered up there ^^ :D

Who's Ken then. Do I know him? Is he a nice chap? ;)

[Swanny]

My take on things after a lifetime of trying to work out WTF I'm doing here is that there is no god, religions are just BS used to control people. ie if you don't do as it says in this book you will go to hell and spend the rest of eternity burning and having red hot pokers shoved up your arse by some big red horny chap, but remember god loves you. Yea right :-/

We are co-creators, we create the world around us, if people focus on war the there will be war. TPTB know this and use the media amongst other things to direct our minds into the directions they want to achieve for their benefit not ours.

Like I said I don't believe in god but you're free to do so if it suits you.
See you on the other side 8-)

[Snowy]

I don't believe in God, but I do believe in aliens - I keep telling everyone Stonehenge is just an old landing site ;D ;D

[Dan505]

my colossus doesn't make me weird :P


agreed...its your weirdness that makes you weird! :D

don't really believe in god and science has its place alongside religion but i do believe in the devil... :-/

[Swanny]

I don't believe in God, but I do believe in aliens - I keep telling everyone Stonehenge is just an old landing site ;D ;D


Works for me :)

[redken1]

I think there may be millions of closet atheists out there who are in denial to protect their insurance policies. “Hedging their bets” just in case the Big Man (Woman for the PC brigade) does exist and gives them a raw deal when their time comes.

In my personal opinion capitalism is a far greater evil and threat to man’s existence than religion.

Indoctrination of capitalism begins at pre-school age with targeted advertising during children’s hour and continues throughout our childhood and into adulthood.

I like to imagine that an intelligent compassionate life-form does exist somewhere in the universe. What would they make of planet earth?

"These humans spend billions on weapons to kill each other and a pittance in comparison on preventing starvation and suffering of their own kind.” They worship at the altar of profit whilst their brothers and sisters perish, but they believe the capitalist Gods will be their saviours.”

I’ve seen the light. :P

[Col]

;D ;D God..gods ?? :-?

Have you ever heard of Pascal's Wager ?

If you are interested to find out just Google it ;)

[Squashed_Fly]

Pascal was a wise man it would seem.

people who don't believe in any form of god, quote science like it's all fact - someone even mentioned that persistent idiot Richard Dawkins. How many things can we do now, that at some point in history, science said we couldn't? Surely that alone disproves the science of FACT? Fact simply means, what we know right now, based on the number of outcomes we have seen so far in history. The second we find a way to get a new outcome, it blows previous facts, and theories out of the water...

Are we really so arrogant, to belive that our generation has all the answers and can't be proved wrong? That there will be no new discoveries in the future that will rock the foundations of what we thing on certain subjects?

I think Matt Damon had it right in Dogma, when he said people should never have beliefs, they should have ideas. An idea can be changed, shaped & moulded with time and experience. Beliefs, tend to be set in stone, and people stick to them so rigidly, they are prepared to lay down theirs, and other peoples lives to protect them.

[Mitch9128]

Pascal was a wise man it would seem.

people who don't believe in any form of god, quote science like it's all fact - someone even mentioned that persistent idiot Richard Dawkins. How many things can we do now, that at some point in history, science said we couldn't? Surely that alone disproves the science of FACT? Fact simply means, what we know right now, based on the number of outcomes we have seen so far in history. The second we find a way to get a new outcome, it blows previous facts, and theories out of the water...

Are we really so arrogant, to belive that our generation has all the answers and can't be proved wrong? That there will be no new discoveries in the future that will rock the foundations of what we thing on certain subjects?

I think Matt Damon had it right in Dogma, when he said people should never have beliefs, they should have ideas. An idea can be changed, shaped & moulded with time and experience. Beliefs, tend to be set in stone, and people stick to them so rigidly, they are prepared to lay down theirs, and other peoples lives to protect them.


You mock science, then quote Matt Damon mocking faith, you make no sense at all.

[Squashed_Fly]

I didn't mock science, neither does MD mock faith. I just said science is as uncertain as religion. Science is only as good as the last set of results... We're constantly finding ways to do things previously thought impossible in science.

Not really sure how having ideas about God that can be changed with what you find out about him, is any less of a show of faith than blindly believing what's in an old book written centuries ago. Faith is about what you experience of God. You have to take the comments Matt Damons character says in context of the rest of the film. But I just like the idea that if more peoples faith was based on their own relationships with God, and not on what they interpret from their holy books, then there would be far fewer wars fought in the name of religion.

Man has an inability to not fight over something. Religion, football, love etc. Anything that evokes strong emotions brings out mens need to fight for something. Religion is blamed on lots of wars, and rightly so. But then football is apparently the reason the many hooligans fight. It's all bollocks - men just aren't happy (in the main) unless they are fighting for something. It's in our nature - we are all animals underneath this civillised exterior...

[Mitch9128]

" I didn't mock science, neither does MD mock faith. I just said science is as uncertain as religion. Science is only as good as the last set of results... We're constantly finding ways to do things previously thought impossible in science."

That is the beauty of scientific theories, they evolve, beliefs or faiths in sky fairies don't.

How old do you think the earth is SF? Billions of years, evolution is a theory, which is now fact, you can't dispute it, but there is no mention of it in your book? God didn't create ****, there is no god, he created man in his own image, but thought he'd feck around with dinosaurs first, then fish, then mammals, then neanderthals etc etc It's a book written 2000 years ago, by people who knew no better, we know a lot better now.

Which God do you believe in anyway? Not the Islamic god, or the jewish god, or the bhuddist god, or the hindu god etc i'll wager?

"We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."

[Squashed_Fly]

If you're asking me personally, I believe that they are all the same God. And I do believe in evolution. I don't know all the ins and outs of how and why are here, nor do I believe that god just created man and we were here from the start. The world in 7 days was mans way of making sense of what he didn't understand back then. That's why I dont take the bible literally word for word.

But the idea of there being something that's bigger than all of us, and living our lives in way not to cause suffering to others etc, is something I do take from it. Like I said at the start, it's personal to everyone.

Too many people believe in something, for it to be just be imaginary 'sky fairies' in my opinion. But I respect other peoples opinions, even if I dont agree wth all of them. I'm jus careful about quoting theories, no matter how probable, as facts when you never know if we might find something out tomorrow, that we don't know today, that disproves it...

[Mitch9128]

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

Just because lot's of people believe in gods, it doesn't follow that educated people should, it's sheep mentality. A quick look around the world shows where religion is most prevalent, middle age backwaters and 3rd world countries with no education, oh and America.

Anyway, here's something we should try, you have a problem with science, let's test gravity? You jump out of a 20th floor window, and we'll discuss the theory of gravity afterwards :D

[wiltshire builders]

I think SF has a very good point here.
It's all too easy to mock religion and pick holes in it (and there are a lot of holes in it) but if you question science you're seen as being ignorant.

We've barely scratched the surface of the "rules" or the universe.
I think it's ignorant the think we've got all the answers.

Having said that I seriously doubt that we're going to suddenly discover that the Bible was real.

Religion is a comfort thing born out of Man's need for answers to the unexplainable.

[Rossio]

" but thought he'd feck around with dinosaurs first, then fish,



Fish were here before dinosaurs ;)

[Jon_W]

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

Just because lot's of people believe in gods, it doesn't follow that educated people should, it's sheep mentality. A quick look around the world shows where religion is most prevalent, middle age backwaters and 3rd world countries with no education, oh and America.

Anyway, here's something we should try, you have a problem with science, let's test gravity? You jump out of a 20th floor window, and we'll discuss the theory of gravity afterwards :D

I must say this is as bigoted view as held by the religious people you critisise. We are all people of this planet, we should all learn to live together as one and accept our differences in physical appearance, belief and sexuality. This kind of agressive "I'm right" approach does nothing to further human endevour, rather holds it back.

It is not a religion which determines a person's outlook, it is the person's own thoughts which determine this.

[Mitch9128]

" but thought he'd feck around with dinosaurs first, then fish,



Fish were here before dinosaurs ;)


They weren't fish, merely water borne dinosaurs ::)

[Mitch9128]

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

Just because lot's of people believe in gods, it doesn't follow that educated people should, it's sheep mentality. A quick look around the world shows where religion is most prevalent, middle age backwaters and 3rd world countries with no education, oh and America.

Anyway, here's something we should try, you have a problem with science, let's test gravity? You jump out of a 20th floor window, and we'll discuss the theory of gravity afterwards :D

I must say this is as bigoted view as held by the religious people you critisise. We are all people of this planet, we should all learn to live together as one and accept our differences in physical appearance, belief and sexuality. This kind of agressive "I'm right" approach does nothing to further human endevour, rather holds it back.

It is not a religion which determines a person's outlook, it is the person's own thoughts which determine this.

Physical appearance, belief and sexuality are all fine with me, belief in fictional characters, invented thousands of years ago, is pushing the boundaries. Read what SF wrote again, it is typical of the god botherers attitude to science, trying to hold progress back. Where what i have wrote is bigoted?

[Jon_W]

People believe in what people believe. If Sf does not believe in evolution or to believe in god then that is his choice. I'd say that any extreme attitude holds progress back, not just the attitude of the religious.

You seem to forget that the anglican church embraced Darwin's theories and that the firs man to seriously study dinosaurs (William Buckland) was a minister of the church.

It is the open minded who progress humanity and the close minded who hold it back.

[Mitch9128]

People believe in what people believe. If Sf does not believe in evolution or to believe in god then that is his choice. I'd say that any extreme attitude holds progress back, not just the attitude of the religious.

You seem to forget that the anglican church embraced Darwin's theories and that the firs man to seriously study dinosaurs (William Buckland) was a minister of the church.

It is the open minded who progress humanity and the close minded who hold it back.

You seem to be trying to stop me questioning SF's belief's, but not trying to stop SF questioning my faith in science? Why is that?

William Buckland studied dinosaurs, yes, and?

"We should be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brain falls out."

Still waiting for you to validate your claim i am bigoted?

[Jon_W]

I give up. SF is not the one on the attack. If he was, I would question him.

You prove my point with every post you make on this subject. You views on religion will never change. You tar all religion with the same brush and are proud to do so.

As to William buckland, he was a man of God, a minister, but was prepared to look at somthing that seriously challenged his view and use logic to come to a conclusion that was to him, amazing.

[Mitch9128]

I give up. SF is not the one on the attack. If he was, I would question him.

You prove my point with every post you make on this subject. You views on religion will never change. You tar all religion with the same brush and are proud to do so.

As to William buckland, he was a man of God, a minister, but was prepared to look at somthing that seriously challenged his view and use logic to come to a conclusion that was to him, amazing.

I'm an Atheist, yes of course my view on religion won't change, same as every other atheist's view on it. Stop trying to silence debate Jon, it's an open forum. What did you expect, that SF would post something and i'd convert to Islam or sumsuch? Atheist's question religion and those who support it, it's all very well SF saying he isn't religious, but he believes in God. Sorry you can't cop out like that, christianity was founded on a belief in God, and that he sent his son to earth to save us all, they go hand in hand, you can't have one without the other.

[Mitch9128]

It would be so much easier if you hadn't created a religion around worshipping him.

Oh you deleted your post SF?!

[Squashed_Fly]

What did you expect, that SF would post something and i'd convert to Islam or sumsuch?

I never tried to convert anyone to anything??? Where did that come from?


it's all very well SF saying he isn't religious, but he believes in God. Sorry you can't cop out like that,

That's not a cop out. Religion & faith are 2, VERY different things. Like most atheists, I hate religion. But I still believe in God.



christianity was founded on a belief in God

No it wasn't


and that he sent his son to earth to save us all,

Only those that believe in him....That is the foundation of Christianity.

And whether you believe in the 'sky fairies' or not, almost every part of Jesus life as told in the bible, is factual. Historians don't debate that. Was he the son of god? Who knows - I'll find out for sure when I die I guess.

You make a lot of very sweeping generalisations about the church, chritianity etc Mitch. And certain aspects of what you say may be right. But I would recommend going to lots of churches, and reading the bible for yourself before you argue either way. If you don't fully understand the bible, God, or what church is about, how can you make the statements you do about it? You should make some effort to find all of that out, and only then you can really decide for yourself.

And you may still be an atheist, but you would be one who fully understands chritianity etc, and so can the make and educated decision. I would never try and 'convert' anyone. Like I said to start with, beliefs/ideas/religions/faiths (in God and/or science) are all personal.

[Mitch9128]

The Islam comment was in reply to Jon, read the context.

So you belief is in the Biblical Yahweh and his son Jesus... If you reject the book why don't you reject the god they represent?

I can identify with your emotional attachment to the Jesus character, I really do. The problem with Jesus is that the peaceful teachings of Jesus if you love him come with the flip side of eternal torture if you don't.

Like i said, It would be so much easier to separate God and religion, if you hadn't created a religion around worshiping him.

[Swanny]

I'm not an atheist I just don't believe in god or religion.
I don't want a label I'm a free spirit.

[redken1]

I recall a conversation I had with another patron from my local pub – the chap in question was a keen skier. We were chatting about my VFR, when the chap said, “I can’t understand how any rational thinking person could ride a motorcycle.”

To which I replied, “That’s because you don’t understand that most people don’t always think rationally, do you when you are flying down a mountain at 60 plus mph on a couple of bits of flimsy plastic?

Does it really matter whether or not any religion is based on rationale?

Whatever "Floats you boat" is what really matters. 8-)

[Mitch9128]

I recall a conversation I had with another patron from my local pub – the chap in question was a keen skier. We were chatting about my VFR, when the chap said, “I can’t understand how any rational thinking person could ride a motorcycle.”

To which I replied, “That’s because you don’t understand that most people don’t always think rationally, do you when you are flying down a mountain at 60 plus mph on a couple of bits of flimsy plastic?

Does it really matter whether or not any religion is based on rationale?

Whatever "Floats you boat" is what really matters. 8-)


Look at the Catholic church Ken, starving Africans dying of Aids, whilst the Pope sits on his golden throne, i thought that would have caught in the back of your throat in particular?

[Mitch9128]

"Many of us saw religion as harmless nonsense. Beliefs might lack all supporting evidence but, we thought, if people needed a crutch for consolation, where's the harm? September 11th changed all that. Revealed faith is not harmless nonsense, it can be lethally dangerous nonsense. Dangerous because it gives people unshakeable confidence in their own righteousness. Dangerous because it gives them false courage to kill themselves, which automatically removes normal barriers to killing others. Dangerous because it teaches enmity to others labelled only by a difference of inherited tradition. And dangerous because we have all bought into a weird respect, which uniquely protects religion from normal criticism. Let's now stop being so damned respectful!"

[Squashed_Fly]

Not everyone who believes in God is a child molesting, African war lord sitting on a golden throne... You're using extreme examples to make your point. Every biker isn't a gun running, drug smuggling criminal. You don't judge other bikers based on hells angels, so why judge all people who believe in god by those few examples you are aware of?

[Mitch9128]

Your God murders, approves of rape, condones slavery, asks that men sacrifice their sons to him. Jesus, his supposed son, lies to the masses. His book, is full of blatant contradictions, which any fool can see through.

You condone and approve of these things, yet whine when you are opposed?

[Beamer]

Politics and religion (and football teams).... a few of the biggest causes of disagreement I know of

But even so, I am a firm believer in choice !! Luckily in this country and a few others we have a choice in which 'God', faith, religion or football team we follow.
No-one has the right to tell you that you are wrong. People that knock on my door to 'sell' me their 'God' really get my goat and I find it irritating and intrusive.
If my own 'faith' has got me this far in life and keeps me 'sane' (ish) then I shall continue the way I am.
Everyone is entitled to their views but I would find it offensive to be told I am wrong......how do they know my views are wrong and theirs are right?

By the way Mitch, God doesnt murder, approve of rape etc etc.........ordinary people do that...in His name........Its Human Beings that do all the damage to other Humans, not God, Allah or any other being that people believe in. They are following words that have been written by other Humans which have been adapted over the years..like fairy tales. ;D ;D ;D

[smellygerm]

Has anyone seen the scale of the universe thred ?
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=me2H7Ja93Wg

[Mitch9128]

Politics and religion (and football teams).... a few of the biggest causes of disagreement I know of

But even so, I am a firm believer in choice !! Luckily in this country and a few others we have a choice in which 'God', faith, religion or football team we follow.
No-one has the right to tell you that you are wrong. People that knock on my door to 'sell' me their 'God' really get my goat and I find it irritating and intrusive.
If my own 'faith' has got me this far in life and keeps me 'sane' (ish) then I shall continue the way I am.
Everyone is entitled to their views but I would find it offensive to be told I am wrong......how do they know my views are wrong and theirs are right?

By the way Mitch, God doesnt murder, approve of rape etc etc.........ordinary people do that...in His name........Its Human Beings that do all the damage to other Humans, not God, Allah or any other being that people believe in. They are following words that have been written by other Humans which have been adapted over the years..like fairy tales. ;D ;D ;D




Tina, Yes God does murder, according to the bible, his book, it's 2,476,633 people he killed, and that's just in his book!

Have a quick scan of this page http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm shocking.

[Trev]

Interesting thread, not 'a believer' myself, just can't seem to make the whole 'all seeing being' thing make sense, bit of a fatalist I guess. IMO all of a bit of accident, we're here in physical form for a few short years then back to base atoms, make the most of it while you're here, try not to p**s too many people off and leave your friends and family with a warm feeling when you're gone.
If I'm wrong and our 'spirit' moves to a higher plain after death I hope any higher being is broad minded enough not to let my non-beliefs in their/his/her/its existence leave them with a grudge ;D
Having said that I'm not a deep thinker on the subject (or many others ;) ) but do like to see a well thought through position clearly explained in a non-pushy manner - keep 'em coming SF

[Squashed_Fly]

Mitch - you do have a point. The old testament God & New Testament ones seem to be very different. And there is a lot about the bible, and God, that doesn't make sense. Which why I don't believe it wholeheartedly and without question. A position that makes no sense to non believers, and, doesn't sit well with most christians either...

I just believe what I believe, and try to do no harm to anyone, and hope that in the end, it's enough... If it's not, then I will have to join you guys in the party downstairs! ;D

[redken1]

Mitch - you do have a point. The old testament God & New Testament ones seem to be very different. And there is a lot about the bible, and God, that doesn't make sense. Which why I don't believe it wholeheartedly and without question. A position that makes no sense to non believers, and, doesn't sit well with most christians either...

I just believe what I believe, and try to do no harm to anyone, and hope that in the end, it's enough... If it's not, then I will have to join you guys in the party downstairs! ;D


And don't forget SF, "The good die young." I will be the world's oldest living person then. ;) ;D

[Mitch9128]

Mitch - you do have a point. The old testament God & New Testament ones seem to be very different. And there is a lot about the bible, and God, that doesn't make sense. Which why I don't believe it wholeheartedly and without question. A position that makes no sense to non believers, and, doesn't sit well with most christians either...

I just believe what I believe, and try to do no harm to anyone, and hope that in the end, it's enough... If it's not, then I will have to join you guys in the party downstairs! ;D


Ach, i'm not having a go at you, i can see many on here probably think that.

I do find it strange how a book like the bible, can be called gods word, yet some Christians take the bit's they want, and disregard other bits. To a non believer like me, i see the nutjobs like Fred Phelps as proper christians, and the people like you as scared of science, in so much as you want to believe science, but it's all a bit too much, so you fall back on explaining the world as Gods work. A small step, and a couple of good books, see 'The God delusion' and 'magic of reality', and you'll be onside SF :)

[Col]

Gotta say I'm ****in enjoying this ;)

Always good bollocks when you bung in some religious beliefs and/or politics 8-)

'opens another tinny' :)

[Toph]

http://www.maximumbikes.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/popcorn.gif

[Mitch9128]

This isn't a spectator sport, pitch in, let us know if you believe in trolls/fairies/elves or eskimo's!

[Toph]

I've already posted my take on religion Mitch :)
I refer to post #31.

[Squashed_Fly]

Having watched many of Mr Dawkins lectures, personally I find the guy just as arrogant, as the person who declares God is real and there is no other way (any number of religious nutters...). Whether you close your mind to relgion, or science, you're still being closed minded. I believe in God, but I accept that I may be wrong, or that actually (shock horror!) science & God can co-exist as theories. They are not mutually exclusive. Maybe some aspects are, but not as a whole.

I've yet to find a scientist who can describe the big bang, as anything other than a coincidence. Take a look around at the view from a moutain top on a clear day, or watch any number of BBC docs about the planet, or a disection on a molecular level of a human eye, then ask yourself is it really just a coincidence? How many trillions of things would have had to fall into place at just the right time for all, this to have happened? And why only once? What makes us so special?

There are still millions of things science can't answer or explain. That doesn;t mean those holes should be filled with 'oh, it's just God, but equally if you can believe in the big bang coincidence, surely the idea of a God can't be that much less believable.

And for the recored - he doesn't live in the sky. I've been in the sky - I can verify that! ;D

[redken1]

I accept that many disenfranchised people around the world use religion as a vehicle to further their particular cause, but IMHO inequality and poverty are the real issues that need to be addressed to avert global disorder.

If you look at most of the conflicts around the world, in the main they have many common factors like a below average age of mortality of their citizens and millions live in poverty.

“The number one killer in Afghanistan isn't al Qaeda or the Taliban. Poverty causes more deaths of Afghan civilians annually than all IEDs, suicide attacks and roadside bombs combined.”

I think it is too convenient for the capitalist west to pigeon-hole conflicts in areas such as the Palestinian territories. If you took religion out of the equation, the Palestinians would still be refugees living in poverty.

And you are right Mitch, there are plenty of issues I could raise relating to the Catholic Church. Child abuse cover up to mention one >:( – save that for another day.

[Swanny]

The number one death will be from radiation because of all the DU bullets and shells. Of course this is killing our soldiers as well as the people of Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan etc

There is no god helping those people.

[Mitch9128]

Ah but God in his Omniscience, created DU weapons, and also knew man would use them.

Indeed the earth is billions of coincidence, that needed to all come together, but it does not follow that because of this, there needed to be an entity that created it all.

How do you explain the age of the earth, and the fact man did not exist until fairly recent times in it's history SF?

[Squashed_Fly]

Funny how we blame God when man does something wrong, yet he's quickly forgotten when we pat ourselves on the back for doing something good...

As for man, Rome wasn't built in a day. Even most devout Christians acknowledge the world wasn't built in 6 literal days...

[Mitch9128]

Some christians believe God is Omniscient, therefore he created all knowledge, knowing what is to happen, and designing it so. He is therefore responsible for all atrocities around the world, and has removed free thinking from man, being responsible for our actions, not us. Feel free to pat him on the back when something good happens, i will attribute that to mans ability to do good without a book to tell him so.

I'm asking about the earth before man, why did God create dinosaurs etc before he tinkered with man, in his own image?

[Kevinb]

Christians - Lion food. Would certainly make a drive around Longleat safari more interesting ;D

[Stuntsunlimited]

Your God murders, approves of rape, condones slavery, asks that men sacrifice their sons to him. Jesus, his supposed son, lies to the masses. His book, is full of blatant contradictions, which any fool can see through.

You condone and approve of these things, yet whine when you are opposed?

Thats good Mitch

I know its an old thread but fascinating none the less, I'm quite into the ole Roman history, Religion, particularly Christianity and I read a lot.. The reason there has been no real historical evidence for Jesus Christ, is because historians have been looking in the wrong time period. The Romans were meticulous with keeping records. During the Jewish Revolt Circa 60AD, Jewish/Romano Historian, Scholar Titus Flavius Josephus saw many crucified people, 3 were his friends. He went to camp and begged Titus Vespasian to save them, they were cut down medical care given and one lived. There is quite a credible evidence, illustrated by historian and scholar Ralph Ellis that the one that lived was infact King Jesus (Izas) of Edessa instigator and leader of the revolt. Strange that the religious Jesus and King Jesus of Edessa share the same name and title and some of the same legend. Anyway the rest is kinda like that scene in Braveheart where all the village folk are talking about how Wallace smite the English with fire from his eyes and fireballs from his arse... Which brings me onto Constantine the Great, he was the Roman Emperor that saw that Christianity was taking hold of the Empire. To remain popular with the plebs he adopted, edited and reinvented the Gnostic Gospels for his own ends - to remain in power and to pacify the plebs. The Romans we're pretty clever, they invented Double Glazing, but of course with great intelligence came great brutality.. The Roman Monarchy was very into in-breading and keeping the family blood pure, sound familiar? Which resulted in most of the Emperors being completely funking insane. Mile long lines of buggery, sexual experiments, Heliogabalus - transvestite, Nero - sex with his mother. One even made a Horse a Senator. If you look deeper in to their culture and social system, many, many parallels can be drawn between then and today.

The point I'm trying to make is history is edited like books, bits added, taken out by people that benefit from it. Its a control system, its about time we grew up shook thee chains off and advanced. The human eye argument is meant to be the atheist killer is probably the number one thing they say... I had some Christian group knock on my door a few years ago, trying to get me to petition about abortions, I simply asked them "so do these little souls go to heaven"? they informed me that they did. so I merely replied "in that case are we not doing them a favour"?

One of my daughters is 9 years old, thinks Gods a stupid idea, yet believes in Santa. The sooner people knock religion and notions of a Devine being watching over us on the head, the better. The idea that Aliens created us to be a slave race and they're the Gods, yeah could be far fetched. But haven't we created artificial life in a test tube? Does that make us Gods?

[Swanny]

Good post I agree


Did you realise that santa is an anagram of satan ;)

[Last Train]

I worship the god of Buell

[Stuntsunlimited]

Good post I agree


Did you realise that santa is an anagram of satan ;)

You have just reminded me of Bill Maher's Religulous Movie, where he spoke to a trucker who was into Satanism before finding Jesus - he said, he did drugs, had money had an unbelievable amount of sex with strippers and he quit all that when he found God. Bill Maher replied 'and the problem was'?