Thank you very much Natwest!

[NoYou]

***WARNING*** RANT ALERT ***WARNING***

Well thank you very much Natwest! I took a very long and rather dull ride to exeter en route to dartmoor/plymouth with an assurance from their website that "All ATMs and point of sale transactions are still available." I Just about get to exeter on one tank of fuel, fill up using the last 20 quid in my wallet, go to get some more cash out to get me down to plymouth and get something to eat, Lo and behold! My card is rejected, i try several ATMs at different places including a closed Natwest branch and nothing. So i was forced to turn around and have another rather long and just as dull ride home again! Just consider myself lucky that i had the money in my wallet or i would be very much stranded in exeter about now with no way of accessing any funds at all! Bastards!!! What a nice waste of a day and 40 quid for a fairly dull ride! :)

[Swanny]

The banks having troubles like this seems very fishy to me.
I don't believe they don't have top computer people that can't fix this in hours rather than days

[BB]

It is dragging on a bit..... ::)

BB

[Dan505]

that sucks G, they don't seem to know what they're doing

[redken1]

Did Stephen Hester's pay cheque clear ok? :P

[Swanny]

I bet the queens did

[Jon_W]

***WARNING*** RANT ALERT ***WARNING***

Well thank you very much Natwest! I took a very long and rather dull ride to exeter en route to dartmoor/plymouth with an assurance from their website that "All ATMs and point of sale transactions are still available." I Just about get to exeter on one tank of fuel, fill up using the last 20 quid in my wallet, go to get some more cash out to get me down to plymouth and get something to eat, Lo and behold! My card is rejected, i try several ATMs at different places including a closed Natwest branch and nothing. So i was forced to turn around and have another rather long and just as dull ride home again! Just consider myself lucky that i had the money in my wallet or i would be very much stranded in exeter about now with no way of accessing any funds at all! Bastards!!! What a nice waste of a day and 40 quid for a fairly dull ride! :)

I've had this. Seems there is a onging problem with the Link network. Had a situation of not being able to withdraw cash a few weeks ago.

[redken1]

The Nat-West, part of RBS Group, which is 82 per cent owned by the taxpayer, has still refused to give a detailed explanation of the causes of the crisis despite the bank’s desperate consumers demanding answers.

Surprise, surprise however, the bank’s hierarchy are denying that the 30,000 UK redundancies at RBS and the outsourcing of jobs to India and elsewhere are to blame for the malfunction.

Whatever, surely the main stakeholder (us, the taxpayer) in the bank should at least expect “British jobs for British workers” in this instance? >:(

Closed my account with RBS in protest at the bail-out at the time.

[Swanny]

We all know that banks and even countries are in a very bad way so I think this is just a sign of things to come

[JohnS]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/06/25/rbs_natwest_what_went_wrong/

[redken1]

Will we ever see our hard-earned redies now that the Nat-East is part of the RBS (Relocated Banking Sector?) :D ::) :P

[Ducatista]

I've been with NatWest for 25 years and recently it appears to have gone very much downhill (I don't mean just this recent incident).
Their adverts about helpful banking are also very annoying and stick in my mind due to the irony.

I work with people in India in my IT job and I'm although they are very nice people indeed, the lack of experience and turn over rates are bound to meant there is a downward trend in quality.

[redken1]

Ducatista, on a serious note, I find it absolutely astonishing that the UK government would hand over billions of taxpayer’s cash to a failing bank without attaching a condition that there would be no outsourcing of jobs from the UK. It just beggars belief. :o

[NoYou]

Well i went into my bank to find out what was wrong and it would seem there has been some "suspicious activity" on my account, i called up the number i was given and then spent about an hour trying to convince them i was actually me because the branch i signed up with and have never changed is now closed.
When they finally believed me i was told that someone tried to take $403 out of my account in the US, I've never actually been to the US so that would be quite hard! I not have to wait 3-5 days for a new card to be sent TO MY OLD ADDRESS, because they wouldn't accept that i'd moved house without telling them.
Oh well, Guess i'll have to spend the next week without any money >:(

[JohnS]

I work with people in India in my IT job and I'm although they are very nice people indeed, the lack of experience and turn over rates are bound to meant there is a downward trend in quality.

+1

[Dan505]

Well Oh well, Guess i'll have to spend the next week without any money >:(

Tell them they haqve to give you instant access to your cash over the counter or you will close your account and go, vote with your feet.

[Ducatista]

Oh well, Guess i'll have to spend the next week without any money Angry

My OH left his wallet at home recently and got a unique code via his iphone/Blackberry app to get cash out of the machine.
The code is one use only.

Isn't there a way of you getting money without a card?

[NoYou]

Oh well, Guess i'll have to spend the next week without any money Angry

My OH left his wallet at home recently and got a unique code via his iphone/Blackberry app to get cash out of the machine.
The code is one use only.

Isn't there a way of you getting money without a card?

I can get money by going the bank if i really need it, its not the act of getting money that the problem its the inconvenience that is my complaint. I'm exceptionally careful about where i use my card for this very reason, 99.9% of the time only at bank ATMs, i never pay for anything by card, only cash, apart from the very occasional time i haven't remembered to get any cash out.
The fact this has happened so close to their other "technical difficulties" seems far too much of a coincidence for my liking, and the fact that they haven't made any attempt to contact me about it only adds to my suspicions about the whole thing.

Its more an annoyance of principle than anything else, especially as their lack of effort to try and contact me almost left me stranded more than 200 miles from home! Their complaints department will be hearing from me very shortly, once i find a way to contact them other than by phone.

[Ducatista]

its not the act of getting money that the problem its the inconvenience that is my complaint

My advice would be to complain.
I complained recently and got £210 compensation.
I find it handy to bullet point the issues to make it clear exactly what they are point by point, rather than just do a ramblling rant.



Their complaints department will be hearing from me very shortly, once i find a way to contact them other than by phone.

You can do it on the web, but make sure you make it clear it's a COMPLAINT. As they have a "query" category.

[Dan505]

[QUOTE]My advice would be to complain.
I complained recently and got £210 compensation

did the compo cover your original outgoings or was it a token gesture?

[Ducatista]

did the compo cover your original outgoings or was it a token gesture?

My complaint did not involve a financial loss.
It was about wrong information, phone calls not returned, adressing letters to the man of the house >:( >:( which is a cardinal sin.

I don't want to set your expectations as your case may be different to mine.
I was just saying it's worth doing a complaint.

It may get you some comensation, you may feel better and who knows something may change as a result (if enough people complain).
A gesture will make you feel better, not just because you'd got some money but because they've taken some notice.
It costs them around £500 if anyone goes to the FOS (financial ombudsman service) so they want to avoid compalints getting that far if they can.

Obviously your ultimate power is to switch banks.
I have been with NW for a long time and OH is with them too so it's a big upheaval to change, but it's certainly something I am considering.

[NoYou]

did the compo cover your original outgoings or was it a token gesture?

My complaint did not involve a financial loss.
It was about wrong information, phone calls not returned, adressing letters to the man of the house >:( >:( which is a cardinal sin.

I don't want to set your expectations as your case may be different to mine.
I was just saying it's worth doing a complaint.

It may get you some comensation, you may feel better and who knows something may change as a result (if enough people complain).
A gesture will make you feel better, not just because you'd got some money but because they've taken some notice.
It costs them around £500 if anyone goes to the FOS (financial ombudsman service) so they want to avoid compalints getting that far if they can.

Obviously your ultimate power is to switch banks.
I have been with NW for a long time and OH is with them too so it's a big upheaval to change, but it's certainly something I am considering.



Thanks Ducatista :) Useful info about the cost to them from the ombudsman, I've put in a complaint and wait for their response. Not bothered about getting anything out of it provided i get a satisfactory response ... not saying it wouldn't be nice ;D ;D

[redken1]

I know this ain't much help to you G3o - today's Telegraph.


The computer glitch at the Royal Bank of Scotland (LSE: RBS.L - news) which left millions of customers unable to access their accounts could have been caused by just one junior technician in India, it was suggested last night.
The “inexperienced operative” accidentally wiped information during a routine software upgrade, it has been claimed.
The member of staff, who was working on the programme for the Royal Bank of Scotland, NatWest and Ulster Bank, is believed to have been based in Hyderabad, India.
According to technology website The Register, at least some of the team responsible for the error were recruited in India following redundancies in the department in the
UK.Unions have already blamed the fiasco on the decision to outsource much of the company’s IT jobs , as Indian staff are paid as little as £9,000, compared with £50,000 their British counterparts were paid.

[Swanny]

Haha they expect people to believe that ??? ;D

[Ducatista]

s Indian staff are paid as little as £9,000, compared with £50,000 their British counterparts were paid

Well this clearly shows the nub of the problem.
We all want cheaper prices as consumers, we all want good returns as investors.
In my company we know the quality is less but for 1/5th of the price it represents good value for the investors.

[redken1]

s Indian staff are paid as little as £9,000, compared with £50,000 their British counterparts were paid

Well this clearly shows the nub of the problem.
We all want cheaper prices as consumers, we all want good returns as investors.
In my company we know the quality is less but for 1/5th of the price it represents good value for the investors.



Ducatista, not so sure RBS (Nat West) customers would agree with you on that one. If cheaper always meant better value we’d all be riding about on Chinese motorbikes.

This is not all about quick returns. My point is simple. The taxpayer bailed out this bank to the tune of £billions which could have been spent on vital services. I have never understood the logic of publicly owning any business to provide jobs for workers elsewhere?

As one of the main investors (taxpayer) I would be happy with a slower rate of return in my investment in the knowledge that a British owned bank was employing British workers. And providing a quality service to its customers, which is certainly not the case at the moment.

Moreover, in the wake of this fiasco and in economic terms, outsourcing jobs could prove to be counterproductive, when the final bill for customer compensation and lost custom is tallied-up.

Swanny, the bank is denying that jobs outsourcing has caused the problems with the bank’s computer system. Obviously a PR nightmare for the bank should that turn out to be the case.

[cerruti]

I work in IT as a Problem/Incident/Change management professional and I can assure you that if RBS had followed industry standard practise instead of farming out their sw upgrades to India, this would not have happened.

The change would have had a full impact analysis done and been thoroughly tested and fully regression tested on a simulated system before they even thought about putting it live.

I don't buy all the cr@p the papers are saying. At the end of the day, RBS made a massive error and didnt have any plan in place to clean the mess up - I feel sorry for those who bank with them or Nat West... some people have been hit really hard this this monumental **** up :'(

[Dan505]

Not after any compensation per say Duc but they've got to realise they've bollocksed up big time, going without access to cash in this day and age isn't easy, seriously considering switching banks but where is safe....no where i'm guessing!

almost thought about living off cash and just using the account to receive the money but normal bills and the like need to be paid so is impractical....come on NW, sort it FFS

[redken1]

Cerutti, the papers (not tabloids) I have read appear to be singing from the same hymn sheet as you in as much as saying that the problems probably would not have occurred if the IT jobs had remained here.

[Mitch9128]

Join Santander, then you can have this every week, not just limited to occaisional f*ck ups.

[Ducatista]

Ducatista, not so sure RBS (Nat West) customers would agree with you on that one.

Well I did say investors not customers (and I meant the ones who have clout) but we'll have to see.
Unfortunately ordinary tax payers have no say in what happens at RBS and I agree the government should have done more in our name.
My guess is that we won't suddenly see loads of jobs coming back to the UK but I'd be absolutely delighted to be wrong about that.


Not after any compensation per say Duc

Obviously it's not cheaper when it all goes wrong big time.
The fall out from this is massive for RBS.
However I still think investors (with clout), board members, CFO's will still chose to offshore as it's 1/5th of the price, but will now put more safeguards in place.
No-one would be more delighted than me to be proved wrong about that as I spend my days sorting out the issues with less experienced s/w professionals in India.

Just because it's gone wrong once albeit big time doesn't mean the whole idea is a write off.
If that were true none of us would ever get in a car, plane, bike, boat etc.

I really don't think the clock is going to be turned back, but as I say I'd be delighted to be wrong in this case.

[redken1]

Ducatista, apologies for harping-on a bit on this topic, I know you are right, but that is the very reason I feel so angry – we are the main investors of the RBS and yet we don’t have a say. Our elected representatives who forked out our hard-earned can't even influence top brass pay awards at the bank.

That has to change IMHO. >:( >:( >:(

[Ducatista]

we are the main investors of the RBS and yet we don’t have a say

I totally agree with you.
The first example of this was bonuses, where we bailed out the banks but the top staff got huge bonuses. When the government did the deal they should have put agreements in place on lending, bonuses, jobs etc.

We did have someone capable i.e. Vince Cable, but unfortunately just before he was going to confront the banks he was put out of action. Now I'm not a conpsiracy theorist, but that's one I'd go for. I'm a NatWest customer and a taxpayer and I spend my time polishing t***ds from India, so you have no need to apologise.

I just don't think the clock will get turned back. We're more likely to get assurance of more safeguards put in place so it can't happen again.

If something went wrong with your bike would you scrap it and buy one 5 times as expensive, or would you look to fix the problem?

[redken1]

With respect Ducatista, your question is a bit too simplistic as I put up the cash for my bike; I am only accountable to myself.

That is not the case with RBS – there would be no such choice to be made at the bank if it were not for the generosity of the UK taxpayer.

The taxpayer cannot be expected to fork out £billions without expecting some kind of democratic accountability in return.

[Ducatista]

The taxpayer cannot be expected to fork out £billions without expecting some kind of democratic accountability in return.

I agree completely with that statement.

I don't however think that everyone would vote for paying 5 times the price for wages.
We may have to agree to disagree on that one, but my experience is that people generally don't chose to pay 5 times the price for something.

[redken1]

I am happy to agree to disagree on this one – if a poll was conducted asking the British taxpayer (main investor) whether or not he/she thinks the RBS subsidised jobs should stay in the UK, I know where I’d place my money.

[Ducatista]

The consequence of that decision would be a bank with costs that are 5 times the costs of other banks, probably higher if you add in all the bits that don't happen in India like pension benefits, sick pay etc.
That means simply subsidizing that bank forever out of the taxpayer pocket.

Whilst I agree with you about "some kind" of democratic accountability I don't think you will ever get the scenario of millions of investors getting to vote on issues about how to run the business.
It's simply not going to happen.
Ordinary investors do not get that kind of power and thank goodness as they don't understand the issues.

[wiltshire builders]

I was in Mumbai on Sunday.
Utter f**king chaos doesn't even come close to describing the way things work out there.

We are regressing. Everything is now 'short term' and 'let the next generation/government/contractor deal with it'
The only consistency is that we the end user always loses out.

On my flight back from India I happened to watch Capitalism by Michael Moore. I know he's a sanctimonious prick but he had some very valid points about bowing to the needs of share holders and corporations.

[Ducatista]

Unfortunately the alternatives to Capitalism are much worse, so whilst it's not perfect we have a lot of freedom, choice and democracy to be thankful for.

[wiltshire builders]

Unfortunately the alternatives to Capitalism are much worse, so whilst it's not perfect we have a lot of freedom, choice and democracy to be thankful for.
You should watch the film. Capitalism and democracy are 2 completely different things and rarely go together.

[Mitch9128]

LOL the alternatives to capitalism are worse...for who?

[redken1]

LOL the alternatives to capitalism are worse...for who?

Don’t get me started – worse for the top 10 per cent (or less) of the world’s population. The “Something for nothing” brigade like Cameron’s neighbour who inherited his father’s wealth.

Did anyone watch panorama about the Greek situation on Monday night? One economist reckoned that if the top earners paid all the tax they were due, (not much different from here) Greece would virtually be clear of its current debt. One little elderly lady who’s family were receiving food from charity said,” Greece was better off under the ‘Generals.'

[Mitch9128]

Capitalism: Even the Earth's atmosphere is reduced to a commodity to be bought and sold on the 'free' market.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jun/19/emissions-trading-manufacturing-industry

[Scotty]

I not have to wait 3-5 days for a new card to be sent TO MY OLD ADDRESS, because they wouldn't accept that i'd moved house without telling them.
Oh well, Guess i'll have to spend the next week without any money >:(
So G3o, you DIDN'T advise your bank of a change of address and you're complaining that they won't send a new card to an address that they've never heard of...? Maybe if they'd been able to contact you they could have cleared up the suspicious activity from the US on your account and all would have been fine, or perhaps you'd have been happier for them to simply shrug and not bother about some fraudster stitching you up from across the pond? You can't have it all mate.

Get yourself a credit card and only use if for emergencies, such as when your cashpoint/charge card doesn't work - simples! ;) 8-)

[redken1]

“No-one would be more delighted than me to be proved wrong about that as I spend my days sorting out the issues with less experienced s/w professionals in India.”

“We may have to agree to disagree on that one, but my experience is that people generally don't chose to pay 5 times the price for something.”

Ducatista, If the jobs under discussion had not been outsourced RBS would not be paying 5 times more in wages like for like, because by your own admission your counterparts in India are “less experienced”. And of course there is the additional cost to the bank to pay more highly skilled staff like you to “sort out the issues” to which you refer.

I recall having a similar discussion with the proprietor of a local hardware shop a few years ago. I bought a tin opener from his shop for a £1. On my return home I tried to open a tin of soup with the said opener, but to no avail. The next day I returned it to the shop owner, who said, “Well what do you expect, it only cost you a £1.” To which I replied, “Well what would you expect a tin opener to do?”

The same applies to the RBS, pointless saving on the wage bill if your product ends up being ‘not fit for purpose’ as it is now.

[NoYou]

I not have to wait 3-5 days for a new card to be sent TO MY OLD ADDRESS, because they wouldn't accept that i'd moved house without telling them.
Oh well, Guess i'll have to spend the next week without any money >:(
So G3o, you DIDN'T advise your bank of a change of address and you're complaining that they won't send a new card to an address that they've never heard of...? Maybe if they'd been able to contact you they could have cleared up the suspicious activity from the US on your account and all would have been fine, or perhaps you'd have been happier for them to simply shrug and not bother about some fraudster stitching you up from across the pond? You can't have it all mate.

Get yourself a credit card and only use if for emergencies, such as when your cashpoint/charge card doesn't work - simples! ;) 8-)

Oh i know i was in the wrong for not informing them of a change of address sooner, however when i ask them if i can change my registered address before they send me a new card and they say no...

As for not being able to contact me, they have two phone numbers for me, and my email address. I know they have them because i've been contacted on all of them at one point or another in the past.

I'm not saying i don't want them to try and prevent fraud, i'm very thankful that they didn't flag it up etc.etc. but to not notify me of it when they have several means to do so... just seems a tad off to me

[Ducatista]

Ducatista, If the jobs under discussion had not been outsourced RBS would not be paying 5 times more in wages like for like

Hi Ken,

I've been working in a business that has been using Indian resources for getting on for 10 years.
I can confirm that in our experience the current ratio of 5 times for salary is correct.
I suspect the actual ratio for the total costs to the business may well be higher because on the whole the benefits we get in the UK - like sickness, pensions etc are better that india, but I can't give a figure other than 1:5.

No you don't get like for like. That's not how it works.
You don't replace a £50K Software engineer in the UK with 20 years experience with someone in India with 20 years experience because that resource profile does not exist in India. They get replaced with junior resources.
Then you keep a smaller number of experienced people in the UK to guide them and tell them what to do. Those are the people that didn't lose their jobs and that's pretty much what I do.
So I agree it's not a like for like comparison.
The resources are not being replaced like for like, you're getting less experienced resources and lower qualified resources.
This is what has been happening in IT and probably other professions as well for the past 10 years.

It's anything but "like for like".
It's like changing a Rolls Royce for a Ford Fiesta, but if your requirement is only to get from A to B then for most people it will do.
If it wouldn't do then our customers would have communicated that to us over the last 10 years.


And of course there is the additional cost to the bank to pay more highly skilled staff like you to “sort out the issues” to which you refer.

No that's not an additional cost.
Those people had jobs before and are the ones that aren't being made redundant.
It's not additional staff, although I accept the entire wage bill might not be 5 times, it might be 3.5 or 4 times by the time you take into account the UK staff.



“Well what do you expect, it only cost you a £1.”

Unfortunately the fact is that the majority of the time it does the job adequately. That's my experience of the last 10 years.
That's not just my opinion and experience, that the business decision of a many companies who put their money where their mouth is and their reputation on the line.


The same applies to the RBS, pointless saving on the wage bill if your product ends up being ‘not fit for purpose’ as it is now.

I agree in this individual case it has gone badly wrong.
But the fact is there are many comapnies like mine who've been doing it for decades where it works on the whole, so they are going to carry on doing it.

This is one (really bad) incident, but in the vast majority of case it's working satisfactorily.

If one person crashed their motorcycle really badly would you stop riding yours? If there was a plane crash would you stop flying? If you got food poisoning would you stop eating?

We don't actually know fully what happened here, so I don't think we I can judge, but I don't think that businesses will stop outsourcing just because there has been one awful incident, similar to the fact that planes or people don't stop flying when there is a plane crash and let's face it no one was killed or physically harmed (although I know a few spent the weekend in a prison cell due to lack of bail).

Since outsourcing started, I have been put at risk of redundancy 3 times. I deal with Indian resources everyday who are in a different timezone, don't always communicate well in English, aren't as experienced and have different values.
I deal with these issues every single day.
I would love to turn the clock back.
But I've told you why I dont't think it will change on the whole and that's because on the whole it does the job. A token gesture from Nat West would not suprise me though e.g. they might say all future s/w upgrades will be done in the UK to appease customers, but still leave the bulk of the development staff in India.

[redken1]

“Unfortunately the alternatives to Capitalism are much worse, so whilst it's not perfect we have a lot of freedom, choice and democracy to be thankful for.”

Ducatista, I have really enjoyed debating this very complex issue with you and in the main, agree with most of what you say. You are obviously more conversant with the day-to-day nuts and bolts of how the banking sector operates than me. For me however, it’s more about the unregulated free global market and the role of the banks.

IMHO, Capitalism and Democracy go together like oil and water and I find it hard to think of a clearer oxymoron. The way in which RBS have operated pre and post bail-out demonstrates this perfectly.

In all probability The RBS would no longer be in existence if it were not for the generosity of the UK taxpayer, yet our elected representatives are more or less completely powerless in any decision making process at the bank. Voice in the wilderness, Vince Cable should be commended for making a lot of noise, but even he must of realised deep down, he was ‘p*ssing against the wind’.

While I feel for the RBS customers, I am heartened by the fact that this latest banking fiasco has led to more and more ordinary people asking searching questions.

Again, an oxymoron, but even PM Cameron is talking about, “Caring Capitalism” ;D :P

[redken1]

This is after our politicians promised a clamp-down and more regulation of the Banks at the time of the economic collapse;

Britain's biggest banks are facing the threat of a criminal investigation over the rate-rigging scandal that could cost the industry billions of pounds.
The Treasury has started to look at strengthening criminal sanctions for those responsible for market abuse after Barclays was fined £290 million by UK and US regulators for manipulating the rate at which banks lend to each other.

HSBC and taxpayer-backed Royal Bank of Scotland are among several other lenders being investigated by the City watchdog for fixing the interbank lending figures that affect millions of homeowners and small firms.

Serious Fraud Office investigators are in talks with the Financial Services Authority (FSA) over the scandal while pressure is mounting on Barclays chief executive Bob Diamond to stand down.

In the wake of this, the latest of a long list of banking scandals, expect to see a lot of noise and political point scoring from the powerless politicians, a few ‘sacrificial scapegoats’ hung out to dry. Then, when the media eye wanders away from the concrete jungle in Canary Wharf, business as usual will return.

If you still have got any doubts as to who is really running this country, I’ll bail-out (excuse the pun) with the following teaser?

Should the ‘toothless tiger’ of a financial regulator discover irregularities at any of the banks which received public money, who do you think will pay the imposed fines which will inevitably follow?

[Ducatista]

.

[Snowy]

Looking on the bright side, I haven't spent any cash this week. Having said that I did have to empty my pockets to give my daughter some petrol money ;D That always hurts!

[redken1]

Ducatista,

Love the cartoon.

Recent revelations are just the tip of the iceberg and there is a lot more to come.

To put it in to perspective in terms of the punishment fitting the crime, the fine imposed on Barclays is like a mass-murderer carrying out 8 hours community service for his/her crimes. Just my personal opinion, not a statement of fact.

[redken1]

Anarchy in the UK?

[Swanny]

http://www.davidicke.com/images/stories/April20122/hitler.jpg