View Full Version : Slow down!
redken1
14-07-12, 09:46 PM
Speed limits on many rural roads in England could be cut from 60mph to 40mph under government proposals.
The reduction should be considered by councils on roads with "many bends or junctions", the Department for Transport (DfT) says in draft guidance.
Today's news item on BBC website - thought it may be of interest.
hmm another daft european directive behind there somewhere methinks :-?
Hazel-nut
14-07-12, 09:52 PM
It's bad enough that people don't do 60 when they can but if they can only do 40 bet they will only do 30! Slow drivers annoy me!
I'm sure this one will end up in the same bin as "motorway speeds should be raised to 80mph"
cornishbob
14-07-12, 10:07 PM
when we lived in cornwall we walked with the dog a lot.
numerous times cars and bikes raced up to us and slowed.
i have 'accidentally' broke mirrors before.
once some of the lads were visiting and we were off to the pub. some dumbass little twat came at us on one of those trial bikey bumblebee buzzing things. he was left in the hedge in a stinking pile.
the only way to deal the idiots
so you broke the mirrors once they'd slowed, thus allowing themselves to pass you and for you to break the mirror? every try it to the ones that didn't slow?.......
The days would have flown past, with so little to do, must have been a highlight of the day :-?
Don't worry, I'm sure fatbob is just testing out his obnoxious people skills for reactions for when he is locked up in prison. Only way to deal with the idiot ;D
cornishbob
15-07-12, 10:59 AM
so its wiltshire bikers policy to advocate bad driving is it?
cornishbob
15-07-12, 11:14 AM
i new him.
sadly not missed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NBrSCg71Qk
so its wiltshire bikers policy to advocate bad driving is it?
Umm... exactly what is wrong with slowing down when sighting approaching pedestrians / animals?? (you choose the category) 8-)
cornishbob
15-07-12, 11:55 AM
shouldnt need to slow down if you are at the correct speed for the conditions
shouldnt need to slow down if you are at the correct speed for the conditions
Even at the correct speed for conditions its courtesy to slow down if peds are in the road... that's how it goes... It's inconsiderate if you don't, especially on rural roads. I presume you don't the way you're talking...
cornishbob
15-07-12, 02:37 PM
what about oncoming motorists tractors and dumbasses on bikes?
not just walkers and horse riders
what about oncoming motorists tractors and dumbasses on bikes?
not just walkers and horse riders
What about them? It's a road last time I checked, you get them on there too, sometimes even 18T Lorries ;)
And yes, you might even see some 'dumbasses on bikes' that you're referring too!
redken1
15-07-12, 06:17 PM
“hmm another daft european directive behind there somewhere methinks”
No Voodoo, very rare I know, but the new guidelines originate from Westminster.
The new draft guidelines ask local traffic authorities to keep speed limits under review and to ‘consider the introduction of more 20mph limits and zones, over time, in urban areas, to ensure greater safety for pedestrians and cyclists’.
Basically, LAs have been given more flexibility with regard to imposing speed limits. There is an ongoing heated debate (local paper) in Frome at the moment over a proposal to introduce a blanket 20mph limit across the whole town. Difficult to gauge public opinion accurately - it would appear however, that more of the Town’s residents are against the proposed new limit.
redken1
15-07-12, 06:27 PM
“once some of the lads were visiting and we were off to the pub. some dumbass little twat came at us on one of those trial bikey bumblebee buzzing things. he was left in the hedge in a stinking pile.”
”the only way to deal the idiots”
Fatbob,
Although I’m horrified and could never condone such action, I do admire your courage however, in making what is tantamount to a public confession
cornishbob
15-07-12, 09:02 PM
confession???????????
the gentleman lost control and drove into the hedge.
what a terrible choice... the pub or some twat
Anybody would think from reading this FB that you aren't to keen on bikers?
cornishbob
15-07-12, 09:56 PM
not keen on bikers who give real bikers a bad name
when you do good no one remembers
when you do bad no one forgets
cerruti
15-07-12, 10:00 PM
not keen on bikers who give real bikers a bad name
What's a "real biker"? :-?
Is that like a "real Harley rider" as opposed to a biker (real or otherwise) who rides a Harley? ::)
Those 20mph zones are ridicules and the 40mph zones seem to be spreading further and further past. Wouldn't surprise me if everywhere is 20 and 40 and they fit tracking devises to our bikes and cars to fine us for speeding.
People need to stand against this stupidity
cornishbob
15-07-12, 10:02 PM
yup!!!
not keen on bikers who give real bikers a bad name
when you do good no one remembers
when you do bad no one forgets
not trying to start an argument but your against bikers that harm our rep & you say you clipped a couple of mirrors of the ones that slowed down in the lanes so you saying thats bad biking to slow down? :-?
cornishbob
15-07-12, 10:11 PM
cars!!!????
numerous times cars and bikes raced up to us and slowed.
i have 'accidentally' broke mirrors before.
oh right....thought you'd said ypu'd broke mirrors on both as above quote didn't really single out cars only for the mirrors
cornishbob
15-07-12, 10:28 PM
i'm afraid people in this thread have been reading what THEY want to read.
i went with the flow.
i do agree with the proposals and i do take positive action
but you read what you want to read.maybe i've used my words carefully but sun readers come to mind
don't read the sun its wank.
your qoute didn't differentiate between only the mirrors on cars not bikes so a little hard to read anything other than what you wrote, but like i said not trying to start an argument i just like to understand how people think and gain a little insight into how there are so many differences in humanity.
your also entitled to your opinion FB which is why i like how varied and open this forum is. as far as positive action goes and remove your real riding style from the equation, if you were riding in a manner that you felt was appropriate for the road/conditons and someone clipped your mirror, how would you handle it?
genuinly interested in the thought process behind this :)
cornishbob
15-07-12, 10:47 PM
mate i've got a hay baler we dont do lanes we dont do fast
we dont do mirrors
if i took the vf out who cares
maybe the VF(?) cares....anyhoo think maybe my posts are not being seen as i intended so i'll leave it there FBob.
*back on topic*
yes i agree limits have there place under the right circumstances but there is a stretch of dual carriage way near me that has been dropped to a 40 and a couple of miles of this really stretches the journey out unnessecerily
can we have an attitude check please fatbob. Attitudes like the above aren't welcome on here
cornishbob
16-07-12, 01:47 PM
for the more professional country lane rider
I found this quite interesting -
http://www.mikewaite.co.uk/factsheets/question-of-speed-part-2/
The views of an ex-police motorcycle instructor.
No wonder he's an ex-copper, he seems to have a level of intelligence not required in todays police force 8-)
redken1
16-07-12, 07:21 PM
Frome is approx 3 miles long from one end of the town to the other. It’s ludicrous to expect motorists and other road users to adhere to a 20 mph limit when passing through the town during quiet times such as late evening.
IMHO a 40 mph restriction on many more open rural roads could prove to be counterproductive, leading to an increase in frustration, which would have an adverse effect on road safety.
My van is not very powerful and unlike my bike I need a fair old stretch of clear road in order to execute an overtaking manoeuvre safely. Even now I find it extremely annoying when stuck behind slow moving vehicles because I need to reach a speed of 50mph to engage 5th gear without the engine labouring. And why do so many drivers slow down when climbing up a hill with a clear road in front of them? Grrrrr!
fat bob! im not a "proper biker" as I only grew up with motorcycles in my life, my dad was a rocker, rode and raced motorcycles, started going pillion myself on the bonny he built in the garage, to this day I remember watching him. rode around on field bikes and finally at the ripe age of 16 got my cbt and first road bike which was a honda 50 mbx. My dad (also not a proper biker) rebuilt the pocket size engine teaching me all the way through each step. I have since had very many bikes upto 5 at one time I think, all my kids can ride motorcycles as they have had them in their life too from start. I just wondered where I have to sign up in your club to be "a proper biker"???? By the way, breaking peoples property is illegal, your not a proper pedestrian! ;D ;D [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
cornishbob
16-07-12, 08:24 PM
newnut... i'd love to answer but i cant.
As often happens when lovely - deep thinking sensible Ken tries to start a sensible discussion on a current topic which could effect all of us bikers far more than pedestrian mirror kickers - someone like FB has to go off an a tangent which totally obscures the very valid topic raised by Ken
Ho Hum Ken - Life is full of obstacles to good debate.
Haven't seen you for ages mate - looking forward to seeing you soon - Are you going to Calne??
Have just rescued a maltreated cbr600 from a wouldbe biker pedestrian in Cambridge - judging by it's condition he's probably kicked it around a bit too - It is recovering slowly with some TLC and is now at least mobile although more tlc and recovery is needed. People who abuse machines like that shoul be...... oh well.
See you soon mate
JJ
Ok - just watched that video
Many things could be said about the riding - but also the driving.
When I first started out on 2 wheels 48 years ago I took an RAC/ACU beginners instruction course during which I was told to remember that every car driver is out to kill you!
That video is tragic but also holds a valuable lesson - or reminder for all of us on 2 wheels.
In that, the post is valid and I think that link at least should remain on the site for a graphic and tragic lesson to all - how a great enjoyable day out riding with a mate can so easily end in tragedy,
HOWEVER - the crass ignorant comment with absolutely no respect for the dead, their families loved ones and friends is one of the most disgraceful things it has ever been my displeasure to read. If that is your idea of a biker mate - I AM NOT ONE OF YOU.
I am highly offended and would ask Dabz to remove that comment -whilst if at all possible retain the link for educational purposes.
Sorry to go on so - but that went beyond banter or good humour - it was just pure bad taste.
Geordie Stu
17-07-12, 07:56 AM
Many accidents happen when drivers are within the speed limit but driving too fast for the road conditions on the road.
However, I agree with a reduced speed limit in certain areas. Schools, roadworks on motorways to name 2. Speed limits are in place for a reason, should you choose to ignore them then be prepared to suffer the consequences if caught or worse you suffer an accident.
I'm no angel ::) & have been know to make "Progress" while riding or driving.
Read up on this and I have to say that it seems a bit pointless to me. The current rules on dangerous driving could be used to cover the speed aspect as most lanes you don't want to be doing more than 20-30 down anyway. I do also wonder how this will be enforced considering the squeeze that the police are under as it is. Surely it is better to focus on the roads where most of the traffic is???
... I was told to remember that every car driver is out to kill you!
.....
I remember being told something similar a long time ago and I think its a terrible way to think, I'm sure it creates more problems on the roads.
At the end of the day we're all human beings and if we all had a little more thought and courtesy for other fellow human beings perhaps the roads would be a safer place for us all.
We all make mistakes and we've all got to share the roads. Just my thoughts...
That video is tragic but also holds a valuable lesson - or reminder for all of us on 2 wheels.
In that, the post is valid and I think that link at least should remain on the site for a graphic and tragic lesson to all - how a great enjoyable day out riding with a mate can so easily end in tragedy,
HOWEVER - the crass ignorant comment with absolutely no respect for the dead, their families loved ones and friends is one of the most disgraceful things it has ever been my displeasure to read. If that is your idea of a biker mate - I AM NOT ONE OF YOU.
I am highly offended and would ask Dabz to remove that comment -whilst if at all possible retain the link for educational purposes.
Sorry to go on so - but that went beyond banter or good humour - it was just pure bad taste.
I feel exactly the same a very disrespectful comment.
cornishbob
17-07-12, 09:28 AM
there is the gulf between people
to me that was terrible riding and to call it enjoyable demonstrates that gulf.
there is the gulf between people
to me that was terrible riding and to call it enjoyable demonstrates that gulf.
I'm sure we are all guilty of getting carried away and at some time most (probably all) of us have been guilty of some pretty poor riding, I know I have, but at the end of the day that man was someones son, brother, husband or friend and to say he will not be missed is, in my opinion, so very disrespectful and cruel. :(
cornishbob
17-07-12, 10:09 AM
just off of that roundabout is a macdonalds (maccy d as its known locally).
tuesday evenings is a bike night there.maybe 200 bikes when really busy. there are 3 definite groupings..those of the persuasion similar to the guy that was killed at one end then almost everybody else the other end and ne'er the twain shall meet.then in the middle was yes you've guessed it -the goldwing owners and the 'h.o.g.' and the medallion man cruisers.
obviously it was the talk of the town on that particular evening. i cant speak for all but the feeling where i was was 'just deserts'.
different attitudes as simple as that.
it is videos like that that fuel the need for these proposals.
I am truly astounded that you show so little/no compassion to a fellow human being and those he left behind.
I don't think for one minute any lower speed limit would have prevented that mans death. He was on a high, the red mist had descended and he was oblivious to what was about to happen, as I said I don't think many of us who ride a bike have never been there but a lot of us have been lucky, very lucky.
Geordie Stu
17-07-12, 10:37 AM
Reducing speed limits won't stop accidents. Accidents will happen & continue to happen. We can all talk & have our opinions on what should be done to stop it or reduce speed.
Limit the bhp on young car drivers.
Retake of driving / rider test when you reach the age of 60, if you don't pass then retake within 1 month & 2nd fail take the licence away until they reach the DSA standards.
cornishbob
17-07-12, 10:53 AM
there seems to be oh so many people in this world who want to play with fire then go crying to mummy when they get burnt.
if we all stuck to the rules he'd still be alive there'd be no point to this thread and we'd all live happily ever after.
Reducing speed limits won't stop accidents. Accidents will happen & continue to happen. We can all talk & have our opinions on what should be done to stop it or reduce speed.
Limit the bhp on young car drivers.
Retake of driving / rider test when you reach the age of 60, if you don't pass then retake within 1 month & 2nd fail take the licence away until they reach the DSA standards.
Why wait until the age of 60? I think education should be better for all of us that share the roads and ongoing.
there seems to be oh so many people in this world who want to play with fire then go crying to mummy when they get burnt.
if we all stuck to the rules he'd still be alive there'd be no point to this thread and we'd all live happily ever after.
Maybe, but, I think it's a sad day when we show no respect to someone who has tragically lost their life and for those who have been left behind.
if no one took risks, there would still be no motorcycles at all. everything designed took some risk, whether it great or small. I didn't see him crying to anyone! just a whimp bad mouthing someone who isn't here to defend his actions.
wiltshire builders
17-07-12, 05:00 PM
there seems to be oh so many people in this world who want to play with fire then go crying to mummy when they get burnt.
if we all stuck to the rules he'd still be alive there'd be no point to this thread and we'd all live happily ever after.
Who's 'crying to mummy'? Certainly not the guy in the video. He never asked for your sympathy. As for getting his 'just deserts'. There are very few people in this world who deserve to die. I reserve those kind of feelings for war criminals, peodophiles, rapist and the like. Speeders? Not really in the same league.
I know you think you're 'putting the cat amongst the pidgeons' but you're actually being a massive tw@t.
Maybe you should start behaving like a 'proper' human being.
Ok - just watched that video
Many things could be said about the riding - but also the driving.
When I first started out on 2 wheels 48 years ago I took an RAC/ACU beginners instruction course during which I was told to remember that every car driver is out to kill you!
That video is tragic but also holds a valuable lesson - or reminder for all of us on 2 wheels.
In that, the post is valid and I think that link at least should remain on the site for a graphic and tragic lesson to all - how a great enjoyable day out riding with a mate can so easily end in tragedy,
[highlight]HOWEVER - the crass ignorant comment with absolutely no respect for the dead, their families loved ones and friends is one of the most disgraceful things it has ever been my displeasure to read. If that is your idea of a biker mate - I AM NOT ONE OF YOU.
I am highly offended and would ask Dabz to remove that comment -whilst if at all possible retain the link for educational purposes.
Sorry to go on so - but that went beyond banter or good humour - it was just pure bad taste.
Couldnt agree more Jay Jay......... whilst you are entitled to your opinion Fatbob I for one would appreciate it if you would keep your 'keyboard warrior's words to yourself. I cannot understand how you could disrespect another human beings loss of life.........no matter how it happened you are definately not qualified to make judgements on another unless of course you are actually writing from 'Heaven' and are flanked by harp playing angels.
Im sure you love stirring the pot on here and really enjoy winding up our more compassionate members.....but honestly, to use another persons death to do this is the lowest of the low......almost equivalent to being a parasite i.e. using this bikers death to enhance your own pathetic 'voice' !!!
redken1
17-07-12, 06:51 PM
Reducing speed limits won't stop accidents. Accidents will happen & continue to happen. We can all talk & have our opinions on what should be done to stop it or reduce speed.
Limit the bhp on young car drivers.
Retake of driving / rider test when you reach the age of 60, if you don't pass then retake within 1 month & 2nd fail take the licence away until they reach the DSA standards.
Getting back on topic, Stu, I agree with your comments in your earlier post about reducing the speed limit in certain areas like outside schools. The proposal for Frome however, is 20 mph across the whole town 24 hours a day.
I don’t agree with retesting for sixty year olds and over because statistically they are one of the safest age groups using the roads. Drivers over 70 are no more likely to cause crashes than any other driver, and are considerably safer than younger drivers, according to a report published by the RoadSafe member IAM (Institute of Advanced Motorists).
This would just be another stealth tax for many of our already hard-pressed pensioners – I wouldn't have a problem with over seventies undergoing an extensive free medical to ascertain as to whether or not they are fit to drive/ride.
Mitch9128
17-07-12, 07:44 PM
It's just another seen to be doing something, but not actually doing sod all by the gubbermint. I agree with 20mph in 'residential' areas, i would also like to see a lot of them made into chicanes, to slow people down forcefully, also introduce play streets for kids. I live on a cut through road in Chippenham, it's a 30, but the speed of some cars and bikes down here is shocking, why do most yoofs round here drive rally prepared stage 1 Corsa 1.2's?
Speed limits shouldn't exist at all, if people drove at the right speed for the road and it's conditions their wouldn't be a problem.
If they want to make the roads safer they should retest everyone every 5 years, you fail you go back to L plates.
wiltshire builders
17-07-12, 07:51 PM
Speed limits shouldn't exist at all, if people drove at the right speed for the road and it's conditions their wouldn't be a problem.
If they want to make the roads safer they should retest everyone every 5 years, you fail you go back to L plates.
Nice idea but the roads would be full up with people taking their test! :o
redken1
17-07-12, 07:56 PM
Speed limits shouldn't exist at all, if people drove at the right speed for the road and it's conditions their wouldn't be a problem.
If they want to make the roads safer they should retest everyone every 5 years, you fail you go back to L plates.
Nice idea but the roads would be full up with people taking their test! :o
And would be pointless, just another money raising tax – How many road users drive/ride the same way as they did on their test?
Mitch9128
17-07-12, 08:03 PM
Do away with pavements, white lines, and give pedestrians priority on ALL minor roads.
Do away with pavements, white lines, and give pedestrians priority on ALL minor roads.
That's been tried somewhere..... trying to find a link. I think it's called "shared space"
http://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2011/11/21/sharing-space-on-exhibition-road/
Here you go!!!!
Mitch9128
18-07-12, 04:19 PM
I'm sure given time and education it could work here, it has worked for many years in Germany.
wiltshire builders
18-07-12, 04:39 PM
I'm sure given time and education it could work here, it has worked for many years in Germany.
This would never work over here.
The Britsh have the wrong attitude. Their idea of 'shared space' is actually 'my space'
This was clearly demonstrated in the videos.
The guy filming is quite indignant that he's not being let across. At the same time the cars are excercising their right to keep moving. Nobody wants to share their space as their journey is more important than anyone elses.
redken1
18-07-12, 07:49 PM
I was listening to Heart radio at work today and was shocked at the news item on the latest accident statistics. :o
More 17 to 24 year olds die in road accidents than from any other cause and 25% of 17 to 19 year olds will be involved in some sort of accident within one year of passing their test. :( :( :(
These are really alarming – perhaps more can be done in the last couple of school years, like visits from traffic cops.
I really don’t know how you convince young males that they are not invincible
Classic example of running out of talent whilst driving.
We were 17 to 24 year olds once.
I can still visually recall two particular incidents in my biking career from over 30 years ago when I was invincible and knew everything. One was stupidity on my part and the other stupidity on a car drivers part that wouldn't have been a problem if I hadn't have been so stupid and riding so fast ;D Got away with both apart from the mental flashbacks :D
Mind you, I thought the bike statistics (as opposed to cars) had moved somewhat from my day when it was all 19 year olds crashing to the more up to date statistics that has 40+ year olds returning to biking being in the highest risk category? And 60% of these don't involve another vehicle?
Have had a few of those.....
Can look back and laugh now..... luckily!!!!! :o ;D
But still have the mullered ankle as a reminder!!!!!
I was listening to Heart radio at work today and was shocked at the news item on the latest accident statistics. :o
More 17 to 24 year olds die in road accidents than from any other cause and 25% of 17 to 19 year olds will be involved in some sort of accident within one year of passing their test. :( :( :(
These are really alarming – perhaps more can be done in the last couple of school years, like visits from traffic cops.
I really don’t know how you convince young males that they are not invincible
I sometimes wonder what they teach in CBT.
Got a lovely young lad that lives around the corner from me who rides a sporty little 50cc never wears gloves. He came off outside my house the other day a lovely slide all down the road skinned his hands and knees (he was wearing thin cotton trousers). I knew exactly what he'd down opened the throttle on a bend over a man hole cover. He truly didnt have a clue that he shouldnt do that and really didnt realise man hole covers were slippery. :o :o
I did try and tell him the importance of wearing gloves too whilst cleaning his hands for him but it clearly fell on deaf ears :'(
That is sort of the point. The CBT tells people what they should and should not do (and indeed what they must and must not do) but the students have to listen. There is also a limit to the detail that can be gone into in a one day and no substitute to expierence.
That is sort of the point. The CBT tells people what they should and should not do (and indeed what they must and must not do) but the students have to listen. There is also a limit to the detail that can be gone into in a one day and no substitute to expierence.
I know what you mean, and don't disagree, but the system is failing when a young rider really doesn't have a clue that you don't open the throttle on a corner, that man hole covers are slippery, and when they don't appreciate the importance of gloves.
That is sort of the point. The CBT tells people what they should and should not do (and indeed what they must and must not do) but the students have to listen. There is also a limit to the detail that can be gone into in a one day and no substitute to expierence.
I know what you mean, and don't disagree, but the system is failing when a young rider really doesn't have a clue that you don't open the throttle on a corner, that man hole covers are slippery, and when they don't appreciate the importance of gloves.
I agree to a point but take a slightly different view that common sense needs to be brought into the equation at some point. I might argue that anyone who is old enough to start riding a motorcycle should have enough between their ears to work some things out for themselves and not need to be told everything they should or shouldn't do. That list is too long to tell. I do believe individuals should be responsible for their own actions - surely at 16/17 you should know its going to hurt if you fall off wearing jeans/tee shirt and no gloves, you should know from pushbike experience (as most would have) that manhole covers are slippery and if you pin it in a corner you're going to slide. I don't think a reliance on instruction to provide all the terms and conditions of riding a motorcycle is either practical, necessary or even constructive. IMHO.
you get fined for not wear a seat belt so why not gloves? they're safety equipment too, police would do you for no lid in a flash...
That is sort of the point. The CBT tells people what they should and should not do (and indeed what they must and must not do) but the students have to listen. There is also a limit to the detail that can be gone into in a one day and no substitute to expierence.
I know what you mean, and don't disagree, but the system is failing when a young rider really doesn't have a clue that you don't open the throttle on a corner, that man hole covers are slippery, and when they don't appreciate the importance of gloves.
I agree to a point but take a slightly different view that common sense needs to be brought into the equation at some point. I might argue that anyone who is old enough to start riding a motorcycle should have enough between their ears to work some things out for themselves and not need to be told everything they should or shouldn't do. That list is too long to tell. I do believe individuals should be responsible for their own actions - surely at 16/17 you should know its going to hurt if you fall off wearing jeans/tee shirt and no gloves, you should know from pushbike experience (as most would have) that manhole covers are slippery and if you pin it in a corner you're going to slide. I don't think a reliance on instruction to provide all the terms and conditions of riding a motorcycle is either practical, necessary or even constructive. IMHO.
I would have to agree. There is only so much that can be taught or legislated for. After that it is up to the rider to use the brain he/she was provided with.
you get fined for not wear a seat belt so why not gloves? they're safety equipment too, police would do you for no lid in a flash...
That's because a helmet is mandatory whereas gloves aren't ::) If skin crayons (for the feckless yoof in question is obviously one of these) are too stupid to consider gloves then tough, they'll have to deal with the pain... I saw one riding an R1 through Newbury town centre on Tuesday; trainers, shirt sleeves, no gloves... One questionable advantage(?) of the crap weather we've endured this summer is that many skin crayons have been saved from themselves, even those ****wits tend not to ride around in a downpour with no protection...
Legislation however, is the wrong way to go. The next step would see the misguided safety nazis having us all ride around in head-to-toe dayglo on bikes restricted to 70mph because "it's for our own good" >:(
Mitch9128
19-07-12, 01:20 PM
If anyone wants to ride round in a thong, i couldn't give a hoot, it's their choice. I did however LOL the other week, when a mate pointed one of these yoofs out and started quoting Darwin...whilst puffing on a cigarette.
That is sort of the point. The CBT tells people what they should and should not do (and indeed what they must and must not do) but the students have to listen. There is also a limit to the detail that can be gone into in a one day and no substitute to expierence.
I know what you mean, and don't disagree, but the system is failing when a young rider really doesn't have a clue that you don't open the throttle on a corner, that man hole covers are slippery, and when they don't appreciate the importance of gloves.
I agree to a point but take a slightly different view that common sense needs to be brought into the equation at some point. I might argue that anyone who is old enough to start riding a motorcycle should have enough between their ears to work some things out for themselves and not need to be told everything they should or shouldn't do. That list is too long to tell. I do believe individuals should be responsible for their own actions - surely at 16/17 you should know its going to hurt if you fall off wearing jeans/tee shirt and no gloves, you should know from pushbike experience (as most would have) that manhole covers are slippery and if you pin it in a corner you're going to slide. I don't think a reliance on instruction to provide all the terms and conditions of riding a motorcycle is either practical, necessary or even constructive. IMHO.
I would have to agree. There is only so much that can be taught or legislated for. After that it is up to the rider to use the brain he/she was provided with.
The young lad I was referring to isnt daft, fairly bright actually, but he really didnt know man hole covers were slippery or that you dont open your throttle on a corner.
Yes of course he'll learn the hard way but I honestly find this so basic that surely it should be something that youngsters are taught.
I know you cant put an old head on young shoulders but this is pretty basic stuff here.
Don't we all learn when we start to walk aged 12 months that falling over ends up with grazed knees and gravel rash on the palm of one's hands? If you walk to school at 8 years old and its raining or snowing, don't you get to learn what's a slippery surface and what isn't anymore? Do we have to be told that riding on wet mud is going to be slippery even if we haven't tried it?
I agree that the basics of riding motorcycles should be covered in the training but surely such a basic life equation of falling off equals pain doesn't have to be part of the syllabus?
you could argue that any motorcycle instructor worth his/her salt would mention that drain covers are slippery etc...I was told that during my training even though it wasn't included in a set syllabus.
you could argue that any motorcycle instructor worth his/her salt would mention that drain covers are slippery etc...I was told that during my training even though it wasn't included in a set syllabus.
Its one thing saying, its another thing hearing.....
Where do you stop though....how do you decide whats worth telling and what isn't? What about, gravel, mud, leaves, moss, branches, roadkill, birds, diesil and everything else you need to know how to handle. Let alone pedestrians, car drivers, cyclists and horses and.... and....and.....
Sorry, must get out of Meldrew mode ;D ;D
wiltshire builders
19-07-12, 03:10 PM
You can only protect people so much. After that, they're on their own.
This is an perfect example of the nanny state backfiring. In Britain we're surrounded by this protective bubble and know that if we get hurt then someone is going to pay/rescue/look after us.
On a recent trip to Thailand the running joke was "It must be safe, they wouldn't let us do it otherwise"
Unfortunately many people actually belive this which is why deaths/injuries of westerners are so high.
They call gravel rash the "Koh Phangan tattoo" as the number of scooter accidents is so high on the island.
Dumbing down isn't the answer and neither is pointing the finger. We all need to stop and think and take responsibility for our actions.
The kid on the 50 needs to be told that the only person to blame is himself, otherwise he'll just carry on making the same mistakes.
agreed, you dress/ride like road rash then you increase the chance of becoming road rash.
i'm sure if riding without gloves/helmets etc voided your insurance then less people would dress better, not all but some.
i feel sorry for the poor sods who have to attend RTI's and have more to deal with because they're spread more of themselves about by not being properly kitted out.
as for CBT i wasn't taught/shown/told anything about counter steering and only found it on here, this simple knowledge improved my riding staright away as i wasn't fighting the bars round the corners :o
You can only protect people so much. After that, they're on their own.
This is an perfect example of the nanny state backfiring. In Britain we're surrounded by this protective bubble and know that if we get hurt then someone is going to pay/rescue/look after us.
On a recent trip to Thailand the running joke was "It must be safe, they wouldn't let us do it otherwise"
Unfortunately many people actually belive this which is why deaths/injuries of westerners are so high.
They call gravel rash the "Koh Phangan tattoo" as the number of scooter accidents is so high on the island.
Dumbing down isn't the answer and neither is pointing the finger. We all need to stop and think and take responsibility for our actions.
The kid on the 50 needs to be told that the only person to blame is himself, otherwise he'll just carry on making the same mistakes.
Yes that's fine BUT if you truly don't know that manhole covers are slippery and that you don't open the throttle on a corner you can only learn by experience.
Thankfully this lad fell off at slow speed on a housing estate and suffered little more than bruises and gravel rash and yes I hope, in the nicest possible way, that he has learnt from it.
If he'd done the same thing, through ignorance, out on the main road with a car coming, learning the hard way could have easily killed him.
The point I am making is that in this country we have basic bike training for learners to minimise road deaths and accidents. I honestly think that's failing if a learner has undertaken basic training and hasn't been taught something as simple as that.
if they make the training more comprehensive though the cost will increase, then us bikers will moan about how it's harder/more expensive to get into biking and the instructors will moan because nobody's learning to ride...
if they make the training more comprehensive though the cost will increase, then us bikers will moan about how it's harder/more expensive to get into biking and the instructors will moan because nobody's learning to ride...
Perhaps it's time to re-look at how/what training is being provided if we really want to reduce accident statistics?
Geordie Stu
19-07-12, 03:41 PM
You hope that when you trian people into doing something they remember at least some part of it. Education is a strange thing some people just don't get it no matter how much they are taught.
Personally it's not just rider training but educate drivers of larger vehicles into becoming more observant. Instead of making motorcycling harder.
I still think young car drivers should have a restriction on bhp similar to that of New Bikers.
This is the arguement gone through every now and again with both cars and bikes.
There is a limit to the amount than can be taught. Even if the CBT was extended to a week long and covered every aspect in great detail the pupil would not remember everything.
We now have the two part test which has had little effect and the increased car test which has had a similar resounding ineffectiveness.
There is no substitute for expierence at the end of the day.
Geordie Stu
19-07-12, 03:49 PM
There is no substitute for expierence at the end of the day.
Agreed [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
wiltshire builders
19-07-12, 04:29 PM
You can only protect people so much. After that, they're on their own.
This is an perfect example of the nanny state backfiring. In Britain we're surrounded by this protective bubble and know that if we get hurt then someone is going to pay/rescue/look after us.
On a recent trip to Thailand the running joke was "It must be safe, they wouldn't let us do it otherwise"
Unfortunately many people actually belive this which is why deaths/injuries of westerners are so high.
They call gravel rash the "Koh Phangan tattoo" as the number of scooter accidents is so high on the island.
Dumbing down isn't the answer and neither is pointing the finger. We all need to stop and think and take responsibility for our actions.
The kid on the 50 needs to be told that the only person to blame is himself, otherwise he'll just carry on making the same mistakes.
Yes that's fine BUT if you truly don't know that manhole covers are slippery and that you don't open the throttle on a corner you can only learn by experience.
Thankfully this lad fell off at slow speed on a housing estate and suffered little more than bruises and gravel rash and yes I hope, in the nicest possible way, that he has learnt from it.
If he'd done the same thing, through ignorance, out on the main road with a car coming, learning the hard way could have easily killed him.
The point I am making is that in this country we have basic bike training for learners to minimise road deaths and accidents. I honestly think that's failing if a learner has undertaken basic training and hasn't been taught something as simple as that.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
Riding/driving isn't a right, it's a privilege and with it comes responsibility.
You are shifting the responsibilty and therefore the blame from the lad to his instructor. If he thinks for a second that it's not his fault he's wrong. He was incredibly lucky and needs to be aware of the full horror that his actions could have had especially wearing what he was. He may not be thick, but he was stupid.
The CBT isn't a test or a lesson to provide you with all the skills you need it's compulsary BASIC training incorporating starting, stopping and basic handling skills.
If you turn it into a major test then you are robbing the people who are capable of making a judgement on what's safe and what's not of being able to ride.
He crashed because he did something stupid. If he's smart, he wont do it again.
You can only protect people so much. After that, they're on their own.
This is an perfect example of the nanny state backfiring. In Britain we're surrounded by this protective bubble and know that if we get hurt then someone is going to pay/rescue/look after us.
On a recent trip to Thailand the running joke was "It must be safe, they wouldn't let us do it otherwise"
Unfortunately many people actually belive this which is why deaths/injuries of westerners are so high.
They call gravel rash the "Koh Phangan tattoo" as the number of scooter accidents is so high on the island.
Dumbing down isn't the answer and neither is pointing the finger. We all need to stop and think and take responsibility for our actions.
The kid on the 50 needs to be told that the only person to blame is himself, otherwise he'll just carry on making the same mistakes.
Yes that's fine BUT if you truly don't know that manhole covers are slippery and that you don't open the throttle on a corner you can only learn by experience.
Thankfully this lad fell off at slow speed on a housing estate and suffered little more than bruises and gravel rash and yes I hope, in the nicest possible way, that he has learnt from it.
If he'd done the same thing, through ignorance, out on the main road with a car coming, learning the hard way could have easily killed him.
The point I am making is that in this country we have basic bike training for learners to minimise road deaths and accidents. I honestly think that's failing if a learner has undertaken basic training and hasn't been taught something as simple as that.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
Riding/driving isn't a right, it's a privilege and with it comes responsibility.
You are shifting the responsibilty and therefore the blame from the lad to his instructor. If he thinks for a second that it's not his fault he's wrong. He was incredibly lucky and needs to be aware of the full horror that his actions could have had especially wearing what he was. He may not be thick, but he was stupid.
The CBT isn't a test or a lesson to provide you with all the skills you need it's compulsary BASIC training incorporating starting, stopping and basic handling skills.
If you turn it into a major test then you are robbing the people who are capable of making a judgement on what's safe and what's not of being able to ride.
He crashed because he did something stupid. If he's smart, he wont do it again.
Perhaps I didnt explain very well - in the incident I mentioned the lad wasn't blaming anyone, he really is a nice, pleasant, decent young man, but he genuinely didnt have a clue that man hole covers are slippery and that he shouldnt open the throttle when cornering, and my personal view is that CBT training must somehow be lacking if someone can undertake this and truly not be aware of something so very fundamental. If he'd done this on a main road with oncoming traffic he'd probably be another (avoidable) statistic.
But yes I do absolutely appreciate what you say and yes we will agree to disagree. :)
wiltshire builders
19-07-12, 05:15 PM
As long as he was ok, that's the main thing. You wouldn't believe the stupid things i've done.....or maybe you would :o
When I was 16 and riding a moped I knew exactly where every mettle drain cover in Trogtown town centre was. Those were the days when you used to leave St Stephens Place do a circuit of the town and park up again ;D
People do stupid things and die it's a fact of life
redken1
19-07-12, 07:57 PM
I can still visually recall two particular incidents in my biking career from over 30 years ago when I was invincible and knew everything. One was stupidity on my part and the other stupidity on a car drivers part that wouldn't have been a problem if I hadn't have been so stupid and riding so fast ;D Got away with both apart from the mental flashbacks :D
Mind you, I thought the bike statistics (as opposed to cars) had moved somewhat from my day when it was all 19 year olds crashing to the more up to date statistics that has 40+ year olds returning to biking being in the highest risk category? And 60% of these don't involve another vehicle?
Graeme, where did you source these figures from? The only reason I was asking was because the alleged higher risk element is certainly not reflected in insurance premiums for older motorcyclists. My bike is group 15, yet costs (£150) nearly half of my small engine van.
I can still visually recall two particular incidents in my biking career from over 30 years ago when I was invincible and knew everything. One was stupidity on my part and the other stupidity on a car drivers part that wouldn't have been a problem if I hadn't have been so stupid and riding so fast ;D Got away with both apart from the mental flashbacks :D
Mind you, I thought the bike statistics (as opposed to cars) had moved somewhat from my day when it was all 19 year olds crashing to the more up to date statistics that has 40+ year olds returning to biking being in the highest risk category? And 60% of these don't involve another vehicle?
Graeme, where did you source these figures from? The only reason I was asking was because the alleged higher risk element is certainly not reflected in insurance premiums for older motorcyclists. My bike is group 15, yet costs (£150) nearly half of my small engine van.
I've heard similar. Bear in mind Ken, you've probably ridden all the time and built up to the Fazer.... the people in question were buying GSX-R's after 20+ years out and not surprisingly throwing it at the scenery.....
I can still visually recall two particular incidents in my biking career from over 30 years ago when I was invincible and knew everything. One was stupidity on my part and the other stupidity on a car drivers part that wouldn't have been a problem if I hadn't have been so stupid and riding so fast ;D Got away with both apart from the mental flashbacks :D
Mind you, I thought the bike statistics (as opposed to cars) had moved somewhat from my day when it was all 19 year olds crashing to the more up to date statistics that has 40+ year olds returning to biking being in the highest risk category? And 60% of these don't involve another vehicle?
Graeme, where did you source these figures from? The only reason I was asking was because the alleged higher risk element is certainly not reflected in insurance premiums for older motorcyclists. My bike is group 15, yet costs (£150) nearly half of my small engine van.
I've heard similar. Bear in mind Ken, you've probably ridden all the time and built up to the Fazer.... the people in question were buying GSX-R's after 20+ years out and not surprisingly throwing it at the scenery.....
Ken, I can't remember to be honest where I have read these - but it was recent. I think there are two main categories at high risk, 16-19 scooter/moped/125 learners and the 35-39 age ranges. There was some evidence I read that for the 40+ range of riders, as Jon points out, its the return to biking guys (its about 94% who are male in this category) who last had a Z1000 in the 1980's who buy the latest superbike (because the kids have gone and they can afford it) and on the first or second fast sunday afternoon run bin it into the hedge. I think that's related to the high percentage of accidents that don't involve another vehicle.
There's lots of other statistics and information insurance companies use to make up your premium not just accidents and age ranges although of course its a major factor. My bike insurance is twice that of my car, but thats not because of my age.
wiltshire builders
20-07-12, 02:02 PM
I heard the same when I did Bikesafe. Stats can be manipulated to prove anything, but it would make sense. There were three blokes of a certain age with us on the trip to Mugello last year. They were born again bikers and the standard of their riding was shocking! They had absolutely no idea what they were doing, where they were going or how to ride in a group.
Pfffttt, the elderly today. They don't know they're born!
Pfffttt, the elderly today. They don't know they're born!
Oi.......don't stereotype ;D ;D ;D
Bonnielass
20-07-12, 04:23 PM
Pfffttt, the elderly today. They don't know they're born!
Oi.......don't stereotype ;D ;D ;D
Yes!! ::)
redken1
20-07-12, 05:59 PM
Apologies Graeme, I was only looking at age and not taking into account older bikers who have gone back to biking after a lengthy lay-off. Ye I can see that that makes sense now. And there was me thinking that wisdom came with age.
Less of the cheek from the youngens on here - You're only as old as you feel - now where the hell did I leave my Viagra pills again? :-/ ;)
Less of the cheek from the youngens on here
No chance!!!! :D
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.