Death penalty

[Maria]

So another poor child been murdered,think its about time they bring back the death penalty,with all the forensic evidence in this day,why the hell do they send them to prison for life 15 years or so,with good behaviour ,out sooner,makes my blood boil.sorry rant over.

[wiltshire builders]

I used to think the same until I met a forensic psycologist who explained that we need to better understand how and why these scumbags do what they do.
Then we can pre-empt their actions and prevent these things happening.

The death penalty is too late as the crime has already been committed.

While I agree that they absolutely deserve to die in the most horrendous way possible, it wont save a single person.

Death isn't a deterrent to these people.

[Col]

I would happily 'murder' a few but whether I should die for relieving the human race of the scum would and should not be understood as being fair or just.

You advocating death penalty for child murder then Maria or any murder ?

What is the real definition of murder ?? :-?

Is it not 'murder' to slaughter innocent civilians in foreign lands ? Yet this happens on a daily basis so what value do you place on the lives of small children slaughtered on the alter of 'acceptable regime change' of a foreign country to placate the desires of western power as opposed to a child murdered here---do their lives hold different values ????? Is the child killed in UK of a greater value than the child slaughtered by massive military might and passed over as an unfortunate side to 'war'

A man kills another who raped his young daughter---is that murder or is that acceptable justice.

Plod shoots dead a man before any legal judgement--is this murder by the state ? or is this acceptable to protect the majority from harm and therefore is 'justifiable killing' but not seen as murder by the state even though to all intents and purposes it is ?


Me ?---Oh yeah I'd rope the lot up -- pay less tax which must be good and saves resources. As we are skint there is no money to keep them alive unless their 'loving families' decide to pay for the murderers keep-----that wouldn't happen I'll bet ;D

[Conehead]

What really gets me is that when there is an accident they always say how many Brits were involved and nothing of the rest.

I dont think we should single people out like that.

:-[ :-[ :-[ :-[

[FJ_Biker]

Personally I do not believe in the death penalty. America still has the death penalty and murder rates are a lot higher

You are stooping to their level after all we are supposed to live in a civilised society. what is the next plan of action stoning people because they commit adultery. Putting witches in water to see if the float or sink. Impaling people for religious views. Personally I am glad these days have gone and we are free to say what we want and people are free to criticise our views.

If the forensic staff who interview this person get enough knowlage out of the person and pass it on via training to social services and this saves a life in the future it will have been worth it.

If the arrested person is found guilty they are going to be locked up with some right evil b@rst3rds, they will not have a comfy life thats for sure.

[Col]

You are stooping to their level after all we are supposed to live in a civilised society. what is the next plan of action stoning people because they commit adultery. Putting witches in water to see if the float or sink. Impaling people for religious views. Personally I am glad these days have gone and we are free to say what we want and people are free to criticise our views.

If the forensic staff who interview this person get enough knowlage out of the person and pass it on via training to social services and this saves a life in the future it will have been worth it.

If the arrested person is found guilty they are going to be locked up with some right evil b@rst3rds, they will not have a comfy life thats for sure.

Don't believe we are 'free to say what we want' at all---as the thought plod will take you away as if you upset some wetweekenders fragile sensibilities by telling it like it is you are a bad bad person >:( [as an example check out the 'scum' post--I know what I'd put and that would upset quite a few ;D ;D ]

Also why are you mentioning 'social services' Taffy ? Do you suppose murderers are already costing normal taxpayers by being 'on the radar' of social services--incidentally these bods are a recent burgeoning cost--- I want to know why there are so many social workers :-? yes--society has burgeoning problems brought about by poor education,parenting,discipline, blah, blah--keep paying and say nowt ::) :P

p.s. Thought I'd highlight 'knowlage' for the spelling mafiosa ;D

oh well at least it's sunny :D :D

[Beamer]

You are stooping to their level after all we are supposed to live in a civilised society. what is the next plan of action stoning people because they commit adultery. Putting witches in water to see if the float or sink. Impaling people for religious views. Personally I am glad these days have gone and we are free to say what we want and people are free to criticise our views.

If the forensic staff who interview this person get enough knowlage out of the person and pass it on via training to social services and this saves a life in the future it will have been worth it.

If the arrested person is found guilty they are going to be locked up with some right evil b@rst3rds, they will not have a comfy life thats for sure.

Don't believe we are 'free to say what we want' at all---as the thought plod will take you away as if you upset some wetweekenders fragile sensibilities by telling it like it is you are a bad bad person >:( [as an example check out the 'scum' post--I know what I'd put and that would upset quite a few ;D ;D ]

Also why are you mentioning 'social services Taffy ? Do you suppose 'murderers are already costing normal taxpayers by being 'on the radar' of social services--incidentally these bods are a recent burgeoning cost--- I want to know why there are so many social workers :-? yes--society has burgeoning problems brought about by poor education,parenting,discipline, blah, blah--keep paying and say nowt ::) :P

p.s. Thought I'd highlight 'knowlage' for the spelling mafiosa ;D

oh well at least it's sunny :D :D





So many social workers???????

You obviously do not work in that neck of the woods........Social services are stretched to the limit, have limited resources and the people that genuinely need their help can't get it because the few social workers about have massive case loads and no time to do all the paperwork involved......If there was more support out there for the people that really do need it there would be less crap going on !! :-[ :-[

[redken1]

I think it is difficult to have a rational debate on whether or not the death penalty should be reintroduced in the wake of an alleged crime like this, as understandably, emotions are running high.

That said however, I am strongly opposed to Capital punishment on three counts.

Firstly, I personally believe that no one, including a Judge acting on behalf of a state, should have the right to take another person’s life.

Secondly, I don't agree with advocates of the death penalty who argue that it would act as a deterrent.

An extensive survey was carried out in the US over two decades up to 2010, which concluded that, “States without the Death Penalty Have Had Consistently Lower Murder Rates.” It’s also worth noting that most murders are not premeditated and it’s unlikely that those that are, are committed by rationally thinking people.

Last, but not least, you cannot resurrect someone who the state has executed for a murder they didn’t commit.

To illustrate this point more clearly, allow me to post an extract from an article written some time ago by Dr Michael Naughton, one of the country’s leading experts on miscarriages of justice. Although a bit dated, it’s still very relevant to this debate.

We tend to think about miscarriages of justice as rare and exceptional occurrences. Prominent cases such as the Birmingham six, Guildford Four, Bridgewater four, M25 three, Cardiff three, Stephen Downing, and so on create the impression that miscarriages of justice are seen as very much an intermittent, high profile and small scale problem; that there are very few victims in the context of the statistics of all criminal convictions. But there are many more cases than those which receive prominent coverage in the media. Those cases of criminal conviction that are routinely quashed by the Court of Appeal (Criminal Division), or by the Crown Court for convictions previously obtained in the magistrates' court have received no attention at all.
If we pay more attention to these routinely quashed convictions, we find a scale of miscarriage of justice to fundamentally challenge any notion that the current system of criminal justice is weighted too much in favour of the defendant. The Lord Chancellor's Department's statistics on successful appeals against criminal conviction show that in the decade 1989-1999 the Court of Appeal (Criminal Division) abated over 8,470 criminal convictions - a yearly average of 770. In addition, there are around 3,500 quashed criminal convictions a year at the Crown Court for convictions obtained at the magistrates' courts. Contrary to popular perceptions, then, wrongful criminal convictions are a normal, everyday feature of the criminal justice system - the system doesn't just sometimes get it wrong, it gets it wrong everyday, of every week, of every month of every year. With the result that thousands of innocent people experience a whole variety of harmful consequences that wrongful criminal convictions engender.

Bear in mind that some of the wrongful convictions highlighted by Dr Naughton, were secured on dodgy evidence brought to the courts by the police and the CPS. In the case of Stephen Downing, He was taken to the police station, questioned for nine hours without a solicitor present, and signed a confession, even though he had a reading age of an 11 year old. Along with many more, he would be dead now.

Let’s not forget the main reason the death penalty was abolished because the state was executing too many innocent people.

Apologies for such a long post, but a very complex issue.

[Col]

Social services are stretched to the limit[/b], have limited resources and the people that genuinely need their help can't get it because the few social workers about have massive case loads and no time to do all the paperwork involved......If there was more support out there for the people that really do need it there would be less crap going on !! :-[ :-[

I know Tina Beamer :) but you haven't actually answered the question 'Why are there so many?' or explained why they are 'stretched to the limit' ?

Perhaps the social workers should concentrate on those who genuinely need help rather than those who are foisted on them to be given help by others in the state system. The government could sort a lot of this out by redefining the areas that should concern them in the legal twaddle that costs us even more money and reduce litigation costs caused by complaints.

soz now gone off topic :D

[Col]

@ redken 'executing too many innocents' -- innocent of what as plenty of question marks around quite a few after a quick check ? :-?

'unlawful killings 300 in 1964'
'The number of killings recorded by police rose to 636 in the 12 months to March 2011'

btw you mention Downing and although released due to lack of plod correct procedure at the time[well done :P ] after over 25 years and now the case is closed. I understand he remains the prime suspect but cannot be retried and refused to be interviewed again even though there are allegations that he has confessed to the killing.

Ken - a dead murderer won't re-offend=fact!!! ;)

'29 people released after being convicted of murder and six people convicted of manslaughter, killed again between 2000/1 and 2010/11'

It won't be re-introduced so we will all continue to keep the increasing number of killers alive and well

[redken1]

@ redken 'executing too many innocents' -- innocent of what ? :-?

'unlawful killings 300 in 1964'
'The number of killings recorded by police rose to 636 in the 12 months to March 2011'

btw you mention Downing and although released due to lack of plod correct procedure at the time[well done :P ] after over 25 years and now the case is closed. I understand he remains the prime suspect but cannot be retried and refused to be interviewed again even though there are allegations that he has confessed to the killing.

Ken - a dead murderer won't reoffend=fact!!! ;)

'29 people released after being convicted of murder and six people convicted of manslaughter, killed again between 2000/1 and 2010/11'

It won't be re-introduced so we will all continue to keep the increasing number of killers alive and well








Surprised by the unlawful killings statistics – most crimes have risen 1000 to 10000 fold since 1964, yet the murder rate has just over doubled. Can’t see how the death penalty would have reduced that figure.

Col, your comments on the Downing case implies that he got off on some legal technicality. The legal mechanisms are live for 25 years for a retrial before a case of this kind is declared closed. Who says he is a ‘prime suspect’? Those who tried to frame him for a murder he did not commit? Why would he want to be interviewed again by those who stole his freedom for so many years?

[Col]

Plenty to read about the Downing case Ken ;)

The Appeal judges did not declare him innocent only that the police were guilty of breaches regarding suspect questioning.

Can't be tried twice for same crime-double jeopardy rules

Discovered something interesting that a report suggests the murderer was right handed yet Downing is left handed :-?

and this sort of anomaly--that had he confessed he would have been paroled years earlier but because he was IDOM -in denial of murder- he was not eligible to be considered :-?

This is just one case and I ain't going to read thru every blooming case you have listed Ken ;D ;D

Check out Steven Truscott case :o

[redken1]

The double jeopardy law was scrapped in 2005, Col.

The court of Appeal can quash an acquittal and order a retrial when "new and compelling" evidence is produced. And it is retrospective, so someone could face a second trial if evidence such as DNA material, new witnesses or a confession came to light.

The change allowed for Gary Dobson to be retried for the murder of Stephen Lawrence.

Tony Blair hasn’t been tried once for alleged war crimes, yet.

[Col]

Did not know about 'double jeopardy' Ken-due to weakness in initial cases I would imagine ;D

Probably this must be for the good overall as there must be several cases that were questionable---wonder if Downing will be tried again?

Blair--now there's a topic :D

[Goldie]

You are stooping to their level after all we are supposed to live in a civilised society. what is the next plan of action stoning people because they commit adultery. Putting witches in water to see if the float or sink. Impaling people for religious views. Personally I am glad these days have gone and we are free to say what we want and people are free to criticise our views.

If the forensic staff who interview this person get enough knowlage out of the person and pass it on via training to social services and this saves a life in the future it will have been worth it.

If the arrested person is found guilty they are going to be locked up with some right evil b@rst3rds, they will not have a comfy life thats for sure.

Don't believe we are 'free to say what we want' at all---as the thought plod will take you away as if you upset some wetweekenders fragile sensibilities by telling it like it is you are a bad bad person >:( [as an example check out the 'scum' post--I know what I'd put and that would upset quite a few ;D ;D ]

Also why are you mentioning 'social services Taffy ? Do you suppose 'murderers are already costing normal taxpayers by being 'on the radar' of social services--incidentally these bods are a recent burgeoning cost--- I want to know why there are so many social workers :-? yes--society has burgeoning problems brought about by poor education,parenting,discipline, blah, blah--keep paying and say nowt ::) :P

p.s. Thought I'd highlight 'knowlage' for the spelling mafiosa ;D

oh well at least it's sunny :D :D





So many social workers???????

You obviously do not work in that neck of the woods........Social services are stretched to the limit, have limited resources and the people that genuinely need their help can't get it because the few social workers about have massive case loads and no time to do all the paperwork involved......If there was more support out there for the people that really do need it there would be less crap going on !! :-[ :-[

I agree with Tina, as a social work student myself I can categorically state that there aren't enough hours in the day/social workers to go around. :-/ Sadly, the way society is heading it's only going to get worse...

[Rabb]

I used to believe that capital punishment was wrong (two wrongs don't make a right)
However, I have over the last few years moved in favour of the death penalty.

Murder in any form is a viscious and callous crime which should command the ultimate sentence.

[camera.op76]

I spent a lot of time in Saudi Arabia, they still publically behead people there. Needless to say crime rates are low... Really low.

Just before left they beheaded a 'WIZARD' - you couldn't make it up! :-/

[Ducatista]

with all the forensic evidence in this day

I don't believe it's an exact science.
If people can win the lottery at 14 million to 1 then they can be innocent with those odds against them as well.

[redken1]

Worth mentioning that the UK could not reintroduce capital punishment and remain a member state of the EU.

In the European Union member states, Article 2 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union prohibits the use of capital punishment.


It's well documented on here that I'm not a big fan of the EU in its current form, but at least they got this right. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

[Rabb]

Worth mentioning that the UK could not reintroduce capital punishment and remain a member state of the EU.

In the European Union member states, Article 2 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union prohibits the use of capital punishment.


It's well documented on here that I'm not a big fan of the EU in its current form, but at least they got this right. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Ken - if bringing back capital punishment meant we had to leave the EU.
I don't think leaving the EU would be such a loss!

[wiltshire builders]

I spent a lot of time in Saudi Arabia, they still publically behead people there. Needless to say crime rates are low... Really low.

Just before left they beheaded a 'WIZARD' - you couldn't make it up! :-/
They don't believe in leniency but they believe in wizards? :o

[Swanny]

I might be wrong but I think treason still carries the death penalty.
In which case Blair and the queen should be hung for signing away our sovereignty

[camera.op76]

I spent a lot of time in Saudi Arabia, they still publically behead people there. Needless to say crime rates are low... Really low.

Just before left they beheaded a 'WIZARD' - you couldn't make it up! :-/
They don't believe in leniency but they believe in wizards? :o

Yep, well leniency comes from the family of the aggrieved. If the family spokesperson calls a halt to it at the 11th hour then they keep their head or right hand, and left foot, or flogging, or stoning, or even crucifixion.

A woman was executed for allegedly making her husband impotent with a potion... nothing to do with the fact this poor woman shall we say 'let herself go a bit'... In their law, Shiara law, witness are allowed, but women - apparently 3 women count for one male... So the poor woman was f**ked from the start.

And all this come from a 'logical' religion, which over there law and religion are one and the same.

oh it cultural differences... different religions... NO its INSANE! :o

[Mitch9128]

I spent a lot of time in Saudi Arabia, they still publically behead people there. Needless to say crime rates are low... Really low.

Just before left they beheaded a 'WIZARD' - you couldn't make it up! :-/
They don't believe in leniency but they believe in wizards? :o

Whatever next...Sky Fairies? I mean what mugs would believe in them?

[camera.op76]

Don't mock that pyus ignorant religion Mitch, there are sky fairies, the same type that flew the planes into those towers! :o

[Mitch9128]

By 'Sky Fairies' i mean ANY gods.

[Geordie Stu]

I for 1 do agree with having the death penalty for Murder. It cut down on prison over crowding, also in some case the evidence is overwhelming.
How much money has Ian Brady cost the tax payer over the years keep ing him locked up while he plays his mind games with the Police saying, Oh I remember where I buried a body.

[Col]

Worth mentioning that the UK could not reintroduce capital punishment and remain a member state of the EU.

In the European Union member states, Article 2 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union prohibits the use of capital punishment.


It's well documented on here that I'm not a big fan of the EU in its current form, but at least they got this right. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


Ummmm run this crap by me again Ken in light of April Jones likely outcome ........

[Mitch9128]

If Mark Bridger is guilty by his own admission, and bearing in mind these sick f0cks get off on the memories they have of commiting these atrocious crimes, then the death penalty is appropriate in these circumstances. These is no moral issue, his life should be ended, by the most painful and foul means possible.

[Col]

There will be many fine words from the people elected to pass legislation portraying concern, condolences and a resolve that this cannot be tolerated and the full measure of the law , bleat, bleat ...however nothing will happen as they act on the wishes given to them by the supporters of the rights of deviants and the common people can say nothing under pain of being imprisoned for speaking out and saying what really needs saying.

Rest assured whoever is guilty will still be alive and doing ok for many years at the peoples expense who will eventually forget about the case and return to their takeaway curries and Corrie ::)

[redken1]

Worth mentioning that the UK could not reintroduce capital punishment and remain a member state of the EU.

In the European Union member states, Article 2 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union prohibits the use of capital punishment.


It's well documented on here that I'm not a big fan of the EU in its current form, but at least they got this right. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


Ummmm run this crap by me again Ken in light of April Jones likely outcome ........

It may be crap to you Col, but I respect your opposing opinion of which you are entitled to.

I am outraged and lost for words over this alleged horrific crime, but I stand by my view that there is no place for the death penalty in a civilised society.

I can’t begin to imagine what her family must be going through right now. :'( :'(

Whoever is found guilty of committing this alleged murder, he/she should spend the rest of their days behind bars. Life should mean life in such instances.

I won't allow emotional blackmail to cloud my mind on such important issues. As I have stated in the past, it is difficult to engage in a rational debate on such matters in the wake of a tragic death like this.

[Col]

Good you can pay my share of this scums upkeep as I don't want to 'contribute' any longer to this 'life' system---Thanks I'll let HMRC know :)

[redken1]

Good you can pay my share of this scums upkeep as I don't want to 'contribute' any longer to this 'life' system---Thanks I'll let HMRC know :)

While you are at it would you please ask them on my behalf if I can opt out of my contributions to the wars, bank bail-outs and so on. ;)

Time for a pint and a chill buddy 8-)

[Mitch9128]

Worth mentioning that the UK could not reintroduce capital punishment and remain a member state of the EU.

In the European Union member states, Article 2 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union prohibits the use of capital punishment.


It's well documented on here that I'm not a big fan of the EU in its current form, but at least they got this right. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


Ummmm run this crap by me again Ken in light of April Jones likely outcome ........

It may be crap to you Col, but I respect your opposing opinion of which you are entitled to.

I am outraged and lost for words over this alleged horrific crime, but I stand by my view that there is no place for the death penalty in a civilised society.

I can’t begin to imagine what her family must be going through right now. :'( :'(

Whoever is found guilty of committing this alleged murder, he/she should spend the rest of their days behind bars. Life should mean life in such instances.

I won't allow emotional blackmail to cloud my mind on such important issues. As I have stated in the past, it is difficult to engage in a rational debate on such matters in the wake of a tragic death like this.


I'd argue the opposite, there is a place for the death penalty in a modern and civilised society. If by their own admission they have committed such a heinous crime, then put them to death by a painful method. There is no argument against if they admit it, and there is no rehabilitation, why do you think the death sentence is NEVER appropriate?

[Col]

Good you can pay my share of this scums upkeep as I don't want to 'contribute' any longer to this 'life' system---Thanks I'll let HMRC know :)

While you are at it would you please ask them on my behalf if I can opt out of my contributions to the wars, bank bail-outs and so on. ;)

Time for a pint and a chill buddy 8-)

stepped on a toe have I laddie ;D ;D ;D ;D

[redken1]

Not my toes Col – you know me, happy to debate till the proverbial cows come home.

Mitch, I have already set out my arguments against the death penalty on this thread. I do not believe that anyone, including a judge acting on behalf of the state, should have the right to take a life.

You are advocating putting a murderer to death by a painful method, yet you talk of a civilised society. Sorry, but I’m unable to “square the circle here.” The adoption of such a punishment by the state is no different from a criminal inflicting physical violence against a victim. In such circumstances therefore, all moral clear water between the state and the criminal would disappear.

[Mitch9128]

These people 'get off' on the crimes they have committed, replaying over in their heads what they have done, over and over. Stop their enjoyment immediately, by ceasing this brain function, perhaps lobotomy could be an answer.

[camera.op76]

If Mark Bridger is guilty by his own admission, and bearing in mind these sick f0cks get off on the memories they have of commiting these atrocious crimes, then the death penalty is appropriate in these circumstances. These is no moral issue, his life should be ended, by the most painful and foul means possible.

I agree, word in the media camp is the Police found the poor lil mite on Tuesday in the river, by the time recovery teams had got there, she's been washed out to sea/estury. Hence the search being concentrated on the river in the hope she'll be washed back in... if you didn't read it in the news or on tv - i didn't happen!

:-[