View Full Version : Road Positioning ?
Here's a boring thread for you, but if any of you can find a way to inject a bit of fun into it, you have my blessing ;)
Road Positioning at Traffic Lights
I'm sure the Highway Code says you can't, but it's something I think 90% of us do and I wonder what the chances of being pulled for it are.
Cross Roads with traffic lights and two lanes.
The lights are on red when we get there and there's three or four cars in the left hand lane to go straight on or turn left.
Nothing in the right hand lane to turn right.
Almost always I go into the right hand lane, get to the front and get away straight on when the lights turn so's not to inconvenience the first car, as do most of you.
If there was a police car in the stationary ones would you still do it ???
Seems to me something that you could be able to get away with 99% of the time - what do you think ?
PS. This could have gone wrong recently at Yarnbrook Cross Roads when the stationary car in the left lane (not indicating) swung across me and turned right. We were both in the wrong, but as often happens I "had a feeling" about her so took it very steady !
Mark_Able
30-10-12, 10:14 PM
Nothing wrong with using the right hand lane to get to the front of the queue. I'd quite happily do it to a Police car. Yarnbrook is a different kettle of fish though. Nobody indicates/uses lanes correctly/sees me/judges my speed correctly. It shouldn't be a roundabout, it should be traffic lights. Too many accidents there... >:(
Hoped you would reply Mark.
The place it happened was the cross roads with traffic lights on on the Yarnbrook to Semington road. Was coming back from Melksham to Westbury and the car was on the inside lane at the top of the hill and cut across me to go down the hill into Trowbridge.
It was more of a general point rather than a complaint about this indecent though.
..... It shouldn't be a roundabout, it should be traffic lights. Too many accidents there... >:(
Have you got that the wrong way round? :)
Yarnbrook isnt a roundabout.
I'm sure Mark is much better qualified to answer than me but I'm doing advanced rider training at the mo and with that you are actively encouraged to use an empty lane to make progress unless the lane is specifically marked for another route to that which you are taking.
I think I know which junction you mean and I wouldnt use that one to gain position as its marked right turn only and especially not past a Police car.
Hope the attached pic comes out.
Yes, on the way from Westbury to Melksham at the top of the hill (the other way on where I had my little fright).
The right hand lane is marked to turn right, but most bikers use it to go straight on if it's empty.
Wow... that's a big one - sorry !!!
redken1
31-10-12, 07:13 AM
What do you do if a vehicle comes up behind you, the right hand lane light is the next in sequence to turn green and your position on the road is preventing it from making the right turn?
Yarnbrook is the stupid little roundabout with the BP garage & Hungry Horse pub at Yarnbrook. I agree with you Mark, dangerous place
The traffic signal junction Gerry is on about is West Ashton Cross Roads
BB
What do you do if a vehicle comes up behind you, the right hand lane light is the next in sequence to turn green and your position on the road is preventing it from making the right turn?
I like to think if on a bike you would tuck in close to the white line by the turning left/straight on vehicle so any right turning vehicles could still have room to turn. Otherwise the police could have a moan at you for obstructing the flow of traffic
BB
i was told on my Bikesafe course you can only use the right hand lane if its the same direction of travel I.e straight on but you can not use it to get to the front of a queue at traffic lights and can only go as far as behind the lead vehicle no exceptions.
also why is it with advanced training they keep saying about 'making progress' which seems to be a poor attempt to hide the fact of speeding and bullying to the front ? :-? how is that advanced?
I do agree with that Dan - sometimes riding isn't solely about getting to your destination as quickly as possible.
I suspect it's because they also teach not to ride unless you need to to reduce your exposure to danger
Senna(Dan)
31-10-12, 10:34 AM
There are a couple of roads like this in Telford and they are a pain in the but. You would regularly find cars strafing the run up to the part where it splits into two lanes, thus obstructing the road.
I personally would have gone for it especially if there was a queue of traffic. Depends on the Police officer present I suppose, I have never been pulled and used to pass a police on a daily basis when I lived up there.
i was told on my Bikesafe course you can only use the right hand lane if its the same direction of travel I.e straight on but you can not use it to get to the front of a queue at traffic lights and can only go as far as behind the lead vehicle no exceptions.
also why is it with advanced training they keep saying about 'making progress' which seems to be a poor attempt to hide the fact of speeding and bullying to the front ? :-? how is that advanced?
Making progress isnt about speeding or bullying at all - not in the slightest.
Its a real shame people get the wrong idea about advanced riding.
Have you ever had a ride out with IAM or RoSPA to see what's really involved?
By the way I'm not some bias bike instructor or observer just someone who did a Bike Safe and then RoSPA/IAM training and have really enjoyed it. :)
also why is it with advanced training they keep saying about 'making progress'
How can you be an advanced rider if you cant show you can exploit the advantages of speed and flexibility you have as a biker?
You learn to be in the right place, at the right speed and in the right gear amongst other things.
IAM and RoSPA are saying you have to make progress all the time but to show in your test that you can do so. If you tootle along everywhere at 40 sitting behind cars and not taking advantage of your bikes capabilities you arent showing you have the capabilities of an advanced rider.
By the way that bit was for me one of the hardest things to learn when I started with advanced riding. I dont generally ride very quickly.
What do you do if a vehicle comes up behind you, the right hand lane light is the next in sequence to turn green and your position on the road is preventing it from making the right turn?
I'm 99% sure the light sequence is always for the right hand turn to be shown after the straight on so this would never happen ;)
West Aston lights. I tend not to use the right lane as, by memory, the island juts out a little meaning that the exit is only one car width. I usually filter the left hand lane if needed.
Agreed the Yarnbrook junction is a death trap! It's too small for the volume and type of traffic using it.
wiltshire builders
31-10-12, 12:34 PM
What do you do if a vehicle comes up behind you, the right hand lane light is the next in sequence to turn green and your position on the road is preventing it from making the right turn?
I like to think if on a bike you would tuck in close to the white line by the turning left/straight on vehicle so any right turning vehicles could still have room to turn. Otherwise the police could have a moan at you for obstructing the flow of traffic
BB
:o Bike sandwich anyone?
I seen it, maybe even done it but I would never advocate doing it. Absolutely nowhere to go if anything goes wrong.
...If you tootle along everywhere at 40 sitting behind cars and not taking advantage of your bikes capabilities....
Shame on you! ;)
...If you tootle along everywhere at 40 sitting behind cars and not taking advantage of your bikes capabilities....
Shame on you! ;)
;D ;D ;D ;D
What do you do if a vehicle comes up behind you, the right hand lane light is the next in sequence to turn green and your position on the road is preventing it from making the right turn?
I like to think if on a bike you would tuck in close to the white line by the turning left/straight on vehicle so any right turning vehicles could still have room to turn. Otherwise the police could have a moan at you for obstructing the flow of traffic
BB
:o Bike sandwich anyone?
I seen it, maybe even done it but I would never advocate doing it. Absolutely nowhere to go if anything goes wrong.
Totally agree and my likelyhood of doing it would depend on everyones road position, lane widths, exits etc. Not to mention that age old 'feeling' you get about some drivers!
BB
also why is it with advanced training they keep saying about 'making progress'
IAM and RoSPA are saying you have to make progress all the time but to show in your test that you can do so. If you tootle along everywhere at 40 sitting behind cars and not taking advantage of your bikes capabilities you arent showing you have the capabilities of an advanced rider.
so if your doing 40 behind the cars that are doing 40 (probably in a 30) in a 40 zone then showing 'advancement' is overtaking whilst breaking the speed limit and there is no exception to speeding (i know cause i asked my brother who is a policeman) and the additional allowance of 10% is to be used with discretion and based on each individual circumstance if other bad driving behaviours have been shown.
after speaking to a few people who have tried IAM and a IAM observer/examiner i was given the clear impression that it is ok to speed and overtake all in your way...i ride for fun but still want to be able to ride again...... sorry to rant on Gerry but i completely disagree with what i've seen regards IAM
...If you tootle along everywhere at 40 sitting behind cars and not taking advantage of your bikes capabilities....
Shame on you! ;)
That'll be me then.........
......I feel ashamed! :( :P
wiltshire builders
31-10-12, 04:00 PM
also why is it with advanced training they keep saying about 'making progress' which seems to be a poor attempt to hide the fact of speeding and bullying to the front ? :-? how is that advanced?
By progress they mean smooth, unhindered riding.
Not over braking, over accelerating, over compensating. Everything is smooth and controlled.
It's amazing how much more progress you can make just by looking ahead.
We've all been overtaken by someone going twice as fast as you, only to catch them up 2 miles down the road.
They've used more fuel and effort and ended up in exactly the same position as you.
It's boring as f*ck, but that's progress ;D
also why is it with advanced training they keep saying about 'making progress'
IAM and RoSPA are saying you have to make progress all the time but to show in your test that you can do so. If you tootle along everywhere at 40 sitting behind cars and not taking advantage of your bikes capabilities you arent showing you have the capabilities of an advanced rider.
so if your doing 40 behind the cars that are doing 40 (probably in a 30) in a 40 zone then showing 'advancement' is overtaking whilst breaking the speed limit and there is no exception to speeding (i know cause i asked my brother who is a policeman) and the additional allowance of 10% is to be used with discretion and based on each individual circumstance if other bad driving behaviours have been shown.
after speaking to a few people who have tried IAM and a IAM observer/examiner i was given the clear impression that it is ok to speed and overtake all in your way...i ride for fun but still want to be able to ride again...... sorry to rant on Gerry but i completely disagree with what i've seen regards IAM
Not at all - you've got/been given totally the wrong impression of progressive riding and what is taught in advanced riding, and honestly that's a real shame.
I dont want to speak on behalf of either organisation but I believe you will find they encourage safe overtaking and would rather, in the main, see you on the wrong side of the road for as little time as possible and dont want you spending all your time concentrating on the speedo whilst doing it. BUT thats not an open invite to speed and you most certainly wouldnt go for an overtake of another vehicle who is travelling at the speed limit.
If you are genuinely interested in improving your riding why not have a go with one of the taster sessions offered by IAM or RoSPA?
also why is it with advanced training they keep saying about 'making progress' which seems to be a poor attempt to hide the fact of speeding and bullying to the front ? :-? how is that advanced?
By progress they mean smooth, unhindered riding.
Not over braking, over accelerating, over compensating. Everything is smooth and controlled.
It's amazing how much more progress you can make just by looking ahead.
We've all been overtaken by someone going twice as fast as you, only to catch them up 2 miles down the road. ***
They've used more fuel and effort and ended up in exactly the same position as you.
It's boring as f*ck, but that's progress ;D
*** But had lots more fun [smiley=vrolijk_26.gif]
also why is it with advanced training they keep saying about 'making progress' which seems to be a poor attempt to hide the fact of speeding and bullying to the front ? :-? how is that advanced?
By progress they mean smooth, unhindered riding.
Not over braking, over accelerating, over compensating. Everything is smooth and controlled.
It's amazing how much more progress you can make just by looking ahead.
We've all been overtaken by someone going twice as fast as you, only to catch them up 2 miles down the road.
They've used more fuel and effort and ended up in exactly the same position as you.
It's boring as f*ck, but that's progress ;D
I understand the above :) but some seem to think it just means being first. After having rode with a few WBers who claim to have done IAM yet sit in the right hand lane at lights then cut across cars to turn left and also overtake on double solid white lines makes me ashamed to be seen with them :-X
I understand the above :) but some seem to think it just means being first. After having rode with a few WBers who claim to have done IAM yet sit in the right hand lane at lights then cut across cars to turn left and also overtake on double solid white lines makes me ashamed to be seen with them :-X
I'm not surprised I wouldnt want to ride with them either :o
IAM dont actually suggest always being first in fact its often suggested to slot into second place at a queue.
As for overtaking on solid white lines...
Sadly some riders do get arrogant after doing advanced training and being really honest I think I did, just a bit, when I did my car test years ago.
I've almost finished my IAM observed runs now and I can assure you you are never encouraged to ride like these idiots and again if it does interest you I really would give it a try.
also why is it with advanced training they keep saying about 'making progress' which seems to be a poor attempt to hide the fact of speeding and bullying to the front ? :-? how is that advanced?
By progress they mean smooth, unhindered riding.
Not over braking, over accelerating, over compensating. Everything is smooth and controlled.
It's amazing how much more progress you can make just by looking ahead.
We've all been overtaken by someone going twice as fast as you, only to catch them up 2 miles down the road.
They've used more fuel and effort and ended up in exactly the same position as you.
It's boring as f*ck, but that's progress ;D
I understand the above :) but some seem to think it just means being first. After having rode with a few WBers who claim to have done IAM yet sit in the right hand lane at lights then cut across cars to turn left and also overtake on double solid white lines makes me ashamed to be seen with them :-X
Dan, speeding is not encouraged or condoned by IAM observers. However, there are circumstances, e.g. when overtaking, where a degree of speeding is acceptable.
On my IAM test, in the briefing I had by the police motorcyclist examiner before setting out on test, he told me that he did not want to see me sitting behind a car in a national speed limit section of road where the car was going at c. 55mph.
He said that i should look for a safe overtake and for the purposes of getting back across the the correct side of the road, accelerating when passing the car to say 65mph was perfectly OK, easing off the throttle back to 60mph as I moved back over to the correct side of the road.
If you went on a WaBAM ride-out you would find it is a slower paced ride than a WB ride-out.
As for crossing double white lines when overtaking, that is both dangerous and breaking the law (unless it is under the handful of situations where crossing the double white lines is permitted as defined in the Highway Code).
I have seen riders do it on WB rides and I take in a deep breath when I see it done as this not only puts the rider in danger but also the people in the cars they are overtaking and in any oncoming vehicles they may suddenly encounter.
If there are two lanes at traffic lights where there are forward arrows in both, then there is nothing wrong with being in the right lane.
If, as described in Gerry's traffic light junction at West Ashton, the right hand lane only has a right filter arrow painted in the lane for right turning traffic, then I wouldn't pass left lane traffic just to get to the front.
Yeah i use the right lane to make my commute smoother when both lanes are straight ahead :)
I spoke to a copper at bikesafe and asked him if it was ok to exceed the speed limit to safely overtake and he said yes it was.
I'm of the opinion that the less time you spend in the oncoming lane the better..... :P
I spoke to a copper at bikesafe and asked him if it was ok to exceed the speed limit to safely overtake and he said yes it was.
I think that's what I said a few posts ago !!!!
Mark_Able
01-11-12, 09:15 PM
I spoke to a copper at bikesafe and asked him if it was ok to exceed the speed limit to safely overtake and he said yes it was.
I think that's what I said a few posts ago !!!!
I think you gave a 'limit' of about 5mph over the speed limit. So if the vehicle you're overtaking is at 55mph, and you're doing 65mph, where is the 'safe' overtake? I do not want to be overtaking an articulated lorry carrying only 10mph extra. Would take forever and be unsafe in my opinion. There should be no limits when overtaking, full stop. However, speed only if appropriate. If it's a five mile straight with no bugger on it, apart from the artic, then no excuses.
As regards the original post about West Ashton traffic lights, I would still use the right hand lane, although I maybe tucked in close to the left. And I would make my way to the front of the queue, and dissappear in the distance when the lights changed. If a copper wants to have a chat about it, he's most welcome. Exactly what he'd like to chat about, would be another thing. What laws have you broken? Whereas the aforementioned overtaking on solid white lines, deserves the book throwing at them. Absolutely no reason for it. It normally only takes a few moments patience before having a broken white line, and a legal/safe overtake.
Dan, if you want to do some IAM/RoSPA, it's worth it. As long as you have an observer who knows what they're talking about. As with most things, there are experts, then there are 'experts', if you catch my drift... ;)
I travel through this set of lights twice a day (5 days a week)
I always try to do this front of queue thing - however it's a judgment call as with all road situations.
If the lights are on red - I plough forward in the right hand turn lane and then cut across at the head of the straight on lane (and give it some welly when the lights change) however, if the lights have changed to green I just bide my time for any overtakes after the lights further down the hill going towards Westbury.
am considering Rospa so i can do the severn freewheelers, different coppers give different opinions....
yes some appear more 'expert' than others but you never know until you meet them
Ducatista
02-11-12, 11:31 AM
By the way I'm not some bias bike instructor or observer
It's nice to know that as soon qualify to improve the skills of others that you become biased ;)
By the way I'm not some bias bike instructor or observer
It's nice to know that as soon qualify to improve the skills of others that you become biased ;)
Sorry Ducatista that wasnt meant in perhaps the way it sounded.
I do genuinely have the utmost respect for people such as yourselves who give up a huge amount of their own time to help others become safer riders.
I know that you and other observers do give a huge amount of your time and the tiny contribution you get I doubt even covers your fuel costs.
I was, perhaps rather badly, trying to promote the benefits of advanced training as someone who is doing it. :)
am considering Rospa so i can do the severn freewheelers, different coppers give different opinions....
yes some appear more 'expert' than others but you never know until you meet them
I think a lot of it comes down to personality too - you'll gel better with some observers than others and different people learn in different ways. I've met quite a few observers now (RoSPA and IAM) all extremely nice people but all very different. :)
As regards the original post about West Ashton traffic lights, I would still use the right hand lane, although I maybe tucked in close to the left. And I would make my way to the front of the queue, and dissappear in the distance when the lights changed. If a copper wants to have a chat about it, he's most welcome. Exactly what he'd like to chat about, would be another thing. What laws have you broken?
Mark I'll ask you if I may, as a professional bike instructor, is their anything in the highway code about this ie using a lane clearly marked to go a different direction to gain advantage over traffic queuing in the correct lane? I am truly interested. I've had a quick flick and couldn't see anything.
Mark_Able
06-11-12, 08:36 PM
As regards the original post about West Ashton traffic lights, I would still use the right hand lane, although I maybe tucked in close to the left. And I would make my way to the front of the queue, and dissappear in the distance when the lights changed. If a copper wants to have a chat about it, he's most welcome. Exactly what he'd like to chat about, would be another thing. What laws have you broken?
Mark I'll ask you if I may, as a professional bike instructor, is their anything in the highway code about this ie using a lane clearly marked to go a different direction to gain advantage over traffic queuing in the correct lane? I am truly interested. I've had a quick flick and couldn't see anything.
Nothing in the Highway Code about it. So I stick to the 'no filtering' principles, which are the same principles as 'no overtaking'. So that means not crossing solid white lines, not entering hatched areas with solid white lines, not entering bus/tram/cycle lanes, not passing the lead vehicle at pedestrian crossings, and not after a 'no overtaking' sign. Encroaching into a right turn lane is not in that lot... ;)
Well at the risk of putting the cat amongst the pigeons I WOULD use the right hand lane there and have on many occasions, in fact I live not far from there, I ride a bike for a reason its not a pleasure thing for me, when commuting as most who dont voice an opinion its not comfortable, its not really much cheaper when you cost in tyres, chains and sprockets insurance and the like, the only real saving you can make on a bike is time, if im not saving my precious time then there is no real benefit to the 15 mins extra before i leave the house getting ready or at my destination, ask any rider the main merit of riding and the first is the ability to cut through traffic and make progress, granted its not all about 120 in the lanes, but if your going to sit behind cars you may aswell be in one !
I always try to ride a high and well visible line, always with my lights on if pushing through traffic, When required I will and do use the whole of the road, I for one would not sit one car rearwards, I would and usually sit at the front drivers side, and before making off there is nearly always a lifesaver (thats what theyre for) where I make eye contact with the driver so I know he knows im there, and if he hasnt seen me, by christ he would have heard me pass, I personally try never to sandwich myself in traffic, I feel less visible to anyone turning starting or stopping,
If the lead vehicle stalls off the lights and the car behind you goes for it..................... Its gonna hurt some ! :-/ I always leave myself whenever possible an escape, to me thats the whole purpose and essence of biking,
The world of commuting by bike and riding socially for me are poles apart, two different styles for two different purposes.
Gooz, do you know its illegal to jump to the front of the queue at pedestrian crossings?
As regards the original post about West Ashton traffic lights, I would still use the right hand lane, although I maybe tucked in close to the left. And I would make my way to the front of the queue, and dissappear in the distance when the lights changed. If a copper wants to have a chat about it, he's most welcome. Exactly what he'd like to chat about, would be another thing. What laws have you broken?
Mark I'll ask you if I may, as a professional bike instructor, is their anything in the highway code about this ie using a lane clearly marked to go a different direction to gain advantage over traffic queuing in the correct lane? I am truly interested. I've had a quick flick and couldn't see anything.
Nothing in the Highway Code about it. So I stick to the 'no filtering' principles, which are the same principles as 'no overtaking'. So that means not crossing solid white lines, not entering hatched areas with solid white lines, not entering bus/tram/cycle lanes, not passing the lead vehicle at pedestrian crossings, and not after a 'no overtaking' sign. Encroaching into a right turn lane is not in that lot... ;)
Thanks Mark.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.