Should we stay or should we go?

[Geordie Stu]

The PM David Cameron has "promised" a referendum in 2017, that's assuming we the public vote the Tory's back in power. Why can't we have the vote now?

Is this a way of trying to sway voters now or a of saying we won't win the next election & then blame labour for not giving us the chance to vote on the EU. Personally I don't see us ever getting the vote & we should bail out of the EU & stand alone. We are being held to ransom by Brussels.

[Jon_W]

Is only a ploy to woo potential UKIP voters back.

Has been done before. Remember raising motorway speed limits?? A promise made pre the last election.... it never happened.

[Snowy]

Without a doubt its a ploy to seek re-election. Regardless of political viewpoints most voters want the choice to say yes or no to Europe. So if you want to vote yes or no then you have to vote Tory at the next election. They're going for all the undecides and swing voters.

[Jon_W]

Agreed. Rather that decent policies and a direction, the Tories just tap into the europe question. Nothing like good honest politics and this is nothing like...

[Conehead]

I hate politicians promises as they are never kept. Waste of breath. >:( >:(

[Swanny]

Ah the illusion that we have a choice in the matter ;D

[redken1]

Back in January of last year, First Minister of Scotland Alex Salmond revealed that the referendum on Scottish independence would be held sometime in the autumn of 2014.

In the wake of Salmond’s announcement the leaders of the three main UK unionist parties called on him to hold the referendum vote much sooner. PM Cameron made an extremely serious and valid point on the timing delay when he said, “The uncertainty about this issue I think is damaging to Scotland and Scotland’s economy, because you have companies and other organisations asking “well what’s Scotland’s future? Is it within the United Kingdom or not?” That’s damaging.”

Well, apart from going some way to explaining why the Tories are a political non-entity in Scotland, today’s hypocritical decision by the PM to pledge an unambiguous yes/no vote to the UK electorate on staying in the EU raises some serious questions, like why announce it now and why wait until the end of 2017?

If two & half years of uncertainty is damaging for the Scottish economy, how damaging for the UK economy is nearly five years of uncertainty. Large potential investors may well ask, ‘is it within the EU or not?’

This is not about what’s best for Britain – more a case of what’s best for the Tory party. Cameron was coming under increasing pressure from his own Euro sceptic backbenchers and was outflanked on the right by UKIP.

All three main parties will stand on an EU referendum ticket at the next general election because to do otherwise would be political suicide, as the vast majority of the UK voters want to have their say on Europe either way, and quite rightly so.

Whatever the outcome at least I won’t have to listen to right-wing waffler Nigel Farage anymore. :) :) :)

[Rabb]

Out now.
We don't need this layer of bureaucracy that costs us all a 'pretty few thousand pounds' per person.
They all lie and talk b@@@@@@s anyway.

It's a 'political gravy train'!!!

[Swanny]

Nigel Farage is the only one worth listening to :)

[Dabz]

Is only a ploy to woo potential UKIP voters back.

Has been done before. Remember raising motorway speed limits?? A promise made pre the last election.... it never happened.

I thought the speed limits were being raised, just not yet?

Can only find a Daily Fail link tho... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2043444/UK-motorway-speed-limit-increased-80mph.html

[redken1]

Nigel Farage is the only one worth listening to :)



Did you see his face tonight now the Tories have stole his thunder? ;D

He has certainly done ok from the EU 'gravy train' :-?

[Geordie Stu]

All three main parties will stand on an EU referendum ticket at the next general election because to do otherwise would be political suicide, as the vast majority of the UK voters want to have their say on Europe either way, and quite rightly so.

That's a good point. Didn't consider that to undo what Cameron has said would be damaging for that party ::)

[Dabz]

The trouble with the EU thing is there are 2 main thoughts on it - it's either great for business, making it infinity easier for businesses of all sizes to import/export from Europe, and then there are the normal members of the public who don't like being dictated to by Europe in terms of laws/regulations/policies.

Personally I support our membership of the EU wholeheartedly and think it'd be a huge mistake to leave - but then I run 2 businesses, one of which focusses on Chinese investment into the UK, and without Britain being in the EU we're likely to lose huge pots of money as a country over the next decade.

[Swanny]

I think it's complete madness for our country to be controlled by the EU. If we really do get the chance to opt out (which I very much doubt) we should leave.
When they signed the Lisbon treaty they committed treason.

[Dabz]

How will we deal with the knock on effect on the economy Swanny, with the reduction in both import and export? It would result in higher taxes

[redken1]

As a democratic socialist, I have mixed feelings on whether we should stay or leave the European Union. On one hand I believe in devolved democratic accountability and less centralisation at Westminster let alone Brussels. We should have democratic control over our own destiny at a local level. Under the EU’s current form the legislators in Brussels are not democratically accountable to the citizens of the member states. Unfortunately however, I doubt leaving the EU will re-engage disillusioned UK voters.

On the other hand, if we pulled out future right-wing UK governments would have a free hand to hammer workers and ordinary citizens’ fundamental rights as we would no longer be able to seek protection under the EU directives umbrella. European Union directives are an instrument which requires member states to enact its provisions in national legislation. It is no secret that should we leave Europe the Tories would abolish the ‘working time directive’ which gives EU workers the right to a minimum number of holidays each year, paid breaks, and rest of at least 11 hours in any 24 hours; restricts excessive night work; and provides for a right to work no more than 48 hours per week.

[Swanny]

How will we deal with the knock on effect on the economy Swanny, with the reduction in both import and export? It would result in higher taxes
Judging by the state of the economies of the other countries in Europe I should think getting as much distance from them as possible is the only thing that makes sense. If we don't they will drag us down with them. How are you going to trade with a country that is even more bankrupt than ours??
The whole situation is fcuked.

[Snowy]

Debates such as this just go on and on because there is no absolute right or wrong - it comes down to individuals opinions and that's what will happen with a vote. Personally I'm pro Europe simply because I don't want a return to trade protectionism and import controls where the rest of Europe would no doubt tax the 50% of our exports that go there into a competitive black hole. I'm willing to take the compromise on legislation where some of it suits us and some of it doesn't. Overall, I'll stay in Europe and expect our government to fight from within rather than outside the union.

I also believe that if you roll the camera forward 500 years the world will have a single federal govt as that's the only way the human race can survive by financing the inevitable task of locating an alternative
planet for us to live. What we're doing now is simply going down that path towards total federalism as the days of small independant governments around the world are numbered :D Controversial huh? ;D ;D

[Snowy]

How will we deal with the knock on effect on the economy Swanny, with the reduction in both import and export? It would result in higher taxes
Judging by the state of the economies of the other countries in Europe I should think getting as much distance from them as possible is the only thing that makes sense. If we don't they will drag us down with them. How are you going to trade with a country that is even more bankrupt than ours??
The whole situation is fcuked.

You can't look at things short term - you have to look at the bigger picture. There will always be peaks and troughs in every economy - that will happen to the UK just as much as it does to any country in Europe. The long term view has to be that the UK needs a strong Europe and then its inevitably a benefit for the UK to be in it rather than excluded and living as a tiny island state all on its own. There's no commonwealth anymore for us to rely on and we need to get used to that. We are second only to Germany in economic and therefore political power - we do have influence in Europe and its better if it stays that way.

[redken1]

Debates such as this just go on and on because there is no absolute right or wrong - it comes down to individuals opinions and that's what will happen with a vote. Personally I'm pro Europe simply because I don't want a return to trade protectionism and import controls where the rest of Europe would no doubt tax the 50% of our exports that go there into a competitive black hole. I'm willing to take the compromise on legislation where some of it suits us and some of it doesn't. Overall, I'll stay in Europe and expect our government to fight from within rather than outside the union.

I also believe that if you roll the camera forward 500 years the world will have a single federal govt as that's the only way the human race can survive by financing the inevitable task of locating an alternative
planet for us to live. What we're doing now is simply going down that path towards total federalism as the days of small independant governments around the world are numbered :D Controversial huh? ;D ;D

Snowy, the opposite is happening if you look around the globe. Regions in Spain, Scotland, Middle East states, Old USSR, Yugoslavia and so on. Moving away from federalism as we are witnessing a huge surge in a desire from people in all corners of the world to be independent and enjoy more local democratic control over their own future.

You are spot on, on the EU though– there is no right or wrong in this debate, just opinions and it is those opinions which will decide our destiny in the end. I’m a Nick Clegger at the mo – sitting on the fence. :P ;D

Whether we stay or go Europe is still bankrupt. Doomy and gloomy, but still true nonetheless. Worth noting that despite austerity back here in ‘Blighty’ our deficit is still rising. :(

Oh when will the greedy capitalists throw in the proverbial towel and admit defeat? ::) :-? ;)

[Swanny]

The only way out of the financial mess the world is in at the moment is to wipe all debt at all levels and start again, but of course that will never happen.

We are £1.1 Trillion in debt and that debt is rising by something like £500 million a day ;D

http://www.debt-clock.org/

£1,136,634,700,000

Can anyone see a light at the end of the tunnel??

I live for today 8-)

[Swanny]

We are using Fiat currency which means our money is worthless. Of course Gordon Brown sold 400 tonnes of our gold when gold was at it's lowest point. Which means we can't even afford to switch back to the gold standard :)

The way I look at it is if the most intelligent people in the financial system got us into this mess what hope is there of us getting back out given that we are in a spiralling out of control amount of debt??
My advice is enjoy it while you can :D


Actually if you have some spare money invest in silver and gold but make sure you physically hold it in you hands.

[redken1]

Swanny,

As a biker, if we do decide to leave Europe, I hope we move somewhere warmer. :D :-* ;D

[Swanny]

Hehe yea somewhere near Gibraltar would be nice 8-)

[Snowy]

Debates such as this just go on and on because there is no absolute right or wrong - it comes down to individuals opinions and that's what will happen with a vote. Personally I'm pro Europe simply because I don't want a return to trade protectionism and import controls where the rest of Europe would no doubt tax the 50% of our exports that go there into a competitive black hole. I'm willing to take the compromise on legislation where some of it suits us and some of it doesn't. Overall, I'll stay in Europe and expect our government to fight from within rather than outside the union.

I also believe that if you roll the camera forward 500 years the world will have a single federal govt as that's the only way the human race can survive by financing the inevitable task of locating an alternative
planet for us to live. What we're doing now is simply going down that path towards total federalism as the days of small independant governments around the world are numbered :D Controversial huh? ;D ;D

Snowy, the opposite is happening if you look around the globe. Regions in Spain, Scotland, Middle East states, Old USSR, Yugoslavia and so on. Moving away from federalism as we are witnessing a huge surge in a desire from people in all corners of the world to be independent and enjoy more local democratic control over their own future.

You are spot on, on the EU though– there is no right or wrong in this debate, just opinions and it is those opinions which will decide our destiny in the end. I’m a Nick Clegger at the mo – sitting on the fence. :P ;D

Whether we stay or go Europe is still bankrupt. Doomy and gloomy, but still true nonetheless. Worth noting that despite austerity back here in ‘Blighty’ our deficit is still rising. :(

Oh when will the greedy capitalists throw in the proverbial towel and admit defeat? ::) :-? ;)


Yup, its a barmy thing ain't it ;D

My own thoughts looking at the future is to do with thinking outside of the box. Forget where we are now and where we will be in 20 years time. Think about the enormous challengies, difficulties and decisions that our future generations in 50 decades time are goiing to have to take. Our current situation, thoughts and politics will be a long time dead by then.

500 years is 2 1/2 times the length of time since the industrial revolution started. Current thinking will be extinct. I'm not suggesting for one minute this is what I want to happen and would support. Its one of many different ways the world may change looking at it in 20 generations time.

[Swanny]

If you want a vision of the future check out United Nations Environment Programme Agenda 21

http://www.unep.org/documents.multilingual/default.asp?documentid=52


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzEEgtOFFlM

[redken1]

"Yup, its a barmy thing ain't it ;D

My own thoughts looking at the future is to do with thinking outside of the box. Forget where we are now and where we will be in 20 years time. Think about the enormous challengies, difficulties and decisions that our future generations in 50 decades time are goiing to have to take. Our current situation, thoughts and politics will be a long time dead by then.

500 years is 2 1/2 times the length of time since the industrial revolution started. Current thinking will be extinct. I'm not suggesting for one minute this is what I want to happen and would support. Its one of many different ways the world may change looking at it in 20 generations time."


Snowy, we won’t make your timescale – if we can beat global warming, :P I think we are heading for unprecedented global disorder within the next hundred years. There will not be enough food on the planet to feed the ever increasing population and more and more people will be living in poverty as a small minority get richer and richer.

A local Historian of the future, who survived the self-destruction of the planet, will find an old hard drive buried in the rubble somewhere on the outskirts of Trowbridge. Krzysztof will dust it down rig it up, get it working and unable to contain his excitement, he will shout, “Olenka, Olenka, ve mast cum cwickly and see dis, de WB mods banned redken1 for doom and gloom on dis tred, but his prophecy predicted all o dis!!!!! :P :D ;D

[Swanny]

Like I said check out Agenda 21 it's not some conspiracy thing it's very real.

[Snowy]

[b]" “Olenka, Olenka, ve mast cum cwickly and see dis, de WB mods banned redken1 for doom and gloom on dis tred, but his prophecy predicted all o dis!!!!! :P :D ;D


I disagree Ken, by then the Apple Communist and Mac IXX party will have released the humanoid Beta version ZX10 of its nano human DOS system which will be chipped into all babies at birth. We will be speaking in 1's and 0's telepathically to each other ;D ;D

[Hunar]

Vote Hunar :)