View Full Version : 'Your country needs you'
redken1
07-02-13, 09:26 PM
I would urge all my friends on here to join the army of volunteers who have already signed up to PM Cameron’s ‘Big Society’ (BS) working tirelessly for no financial gain, proud to be taking up an active role in the BS while enjoying such a rewarding experience at the same time.
My wife insisted on stopping off for a coffee at the McDonalds restaurant in Trowbridge earlier. An unlikely place to find inspiration to do my little bit for the BS initiative, I hear you say.
Well those of you who frequent McDs will be familiar with the fast-food chain’s free coffee promotion – collect 6 stickers (one for every cup purchased) stick them on a voucher to be redeemed at the service counter for your free cup. While my wife visited the ladies’ room, I scoured all the empty tables removing the unwanted stickers from all the discarded paper cups and managed to collect enough for two free coffees in such a short space of time.
I’m going back tomorrow to collect more. I’m not ripping-off McDs as all the discarded cups with stickers were purchased and as the brand name is a symbol of the capitalist ‘American dream’ no harm in me assisting the ‘trickle-down-effect.’
What has this to do with the BS? I hear you ask. Well, when I have collected a significant number of vouchers I shall bring them along to my local ‘soup kitchen’ and distribute them among all those who have recently been made homeless as a direct result of PM Cameron’s ‘Bedroom Tax'.
:P :P :P ;) ;) ;)
Geordie Stu
08-02-13, 04:18 PM
Welfare reforms will cut the amount of benefit that people can get if they are deemed to have a spare bedroom in their council or housing association home. This measure will apply from April 2013 to tenants of working age.
The power to do this is contained in the Welfare Reform Act 2012 and is commonly referred to as the bedroom tax, size criteria or under-occupation penalty.
What do the changes mean?
The size criteria in the social rented sector will restrict housing benefit to allow for one bedroom for each person or couple living as part of the household, with the following exceptions:
•Children under 16 of same gender expected to share
•Children under 10 expected to share regardless of gender
•Disabled tenant or partner who needs non resident overnight carer will be allowed an extra bedroom
Who will be affected?
All claimants who are deemed to have at least one spare bedroom will be affected. This includes:
•Separated parents who share the care of their children and who may have been allocated an extra bedroom to reflect this. Benefit rules mean that there must be a designated ‘main carer’ for children (who receives the extra benefit)
•Couples who use their ‘spare’ bedroom when recovering from an illness or operation
•Foster carers because foster children are not counted as part of the household for benefit purposes
•Parents whose children visit but are not part of the household
•Families with disabled children
•Disabled people including people living in adapted or specially designed properties.
How much will people lose?
The cut will be a fixed percentage of the Housing Benefit eligible rent. The Government has said that this will be set at 14% for one extra bedroom and 25% for two or more extra bedrooms.
The Government’s impact assessment shows that those affected will lose an average of £14 a week. Housing association tenants are expected to lose £16 a week on average.
How many people will see their benefit cut?
The proposal will affect an estimated 660,000 working-age social tenants – 31% of existing working-age housing benefit claimants in the social sector. The majority of these people have only one extra bedroom.
How long before they tax home owners for empty rooms??
Conehead
08-02-13, 06:29 PM
How long before they tax home owners for empty rooms??
They are already doing this in council properties. My Mum was asked to pay for their second bedroom ever since my Dad was admitted to a special care care home. Luckily the law has now changed for pensioners and she does not need to pay now.
Ducatista
09-02-13, 09:10 AM
How long before they tax home owners for empty rooms??
I don't think it's beyond the relams of possibility.
The population is growing and we have finite land.
House price rise as a consequence, making it hard for those at the lower end of the social scale to find affordable acccomodation.
Is it selfish to hoard empty bedrooms, when other people can't get affordable accomodation?
At the moment the system does encourage people to buy excess housing, for example I pay no tax on any gains in the value of my home, but 40% on any gains in the value of my cash. I'd call that an incentive and one of the reasons I own housing excess to my needs.
Perhaps we might see the removal of incentives, but yes I do think it's an area that will come under pressure.
Geordie Stu
09-02-13, 10:56 AM
Here's an example.
A OAP couple living in a 2 bedroom house. The council see them as a couple & assume they sleep together. Therefore, want tax or reduce any benefit as they have an unoccupied room. The reality is that due to medical reasons they sleep in seprate rooms, but the council don't believe them & still charge them. No matter what the Doctors say & hospital say the council aren't satified with the living accomodation.
Conehead
09-02-13, 11:41 AM
Here's an example.
A OAP couple living in a 2 bedroom house. The council see them as a couple & assume they sleep together. Therefore, want tax or reduce any benefit as they have an unoccupied room. The reality is that due to medical reasons they sleep in seprate rooms, but the council don't believe them & still charge them. No matter what the Doctors say & hospital say the council aren't satified with the living accomodation.
Nail on the head. That was my parents situation. The councils dont listen and dont care.
redken1
09-02-13, 07:57 PM
Not all tenants living in public housing will be adversely affected by Cameron’s new ‘bedroom tax.’
Tenants residing in the Royal household will receive a 16 per cent rise in benefits from this April, increasing from £31million to £36.1 million courtesy of the taxpayer. >:( :-?
At least the echoes from the false claim, “We are all in this together” have now stopped. :-X
redken1
10-02-13, 09:56 AM
“Is it selfish to hoard empty bedrooms, when other people can't get affordable accomodation?”
Ducatista, my answer to your question would be a resounding no.
It is not selfish for a married couple in their 50s living in a two-bed terrace property, who both work part-time on the minimum wage (makes a mockery of Cameron’s claim to, ‘back workers not shirkers’) and are eligible for housing benefit, to want to hold on to what has been and is still their family home.
The husband may snore like a pig, forcing his wife to sleep in the spare room. They may wish to enjoy visits from their grandchildren during retirement. They may simply wish to hold on to their home which they have decorated throughout, and to hold on to all the fond memories of the years raising their family.
Allow me to pose a question;
In light of the fact that government officials acknowledge that 85% of the estimated 660,000 tenants affected by the bedroom tax will have to ‘stay put’ as ‘the housing stock is not there’ where will the ‘affordable accommodation’ come from?
If they stopped letting immigrants in there would be plenty of room for all of us. This is just an excuse to get money out of us.
'Your country needs you'
We need a new government, but the ones on offer are all controlled by the same puppet masters
I discovered last week that council tax relief (ie benefit) has been abolished from April 2013. That's really going to help those poor students among us (ie ME) along with 100's of other people who currently get a second adult reduction as that's been scrapped too. Kiss goodbye to the 25% reduction in council tax for being the only adult in the house. >:( >:(
Yours,
pissed off of Chippenham.
Bastards [smiley=thumbdown.gif]
http://www.independent.co.uk/money/tax/debt-threat-as-council-tax-benefit-changes-8458132.html
Local government provide services such as police, fire, recycling, refuse collection and removal, schools, leisure centres, park and ride schemes, parks and open spaces, street cleaning, subsidising of public transport, tourism, museums, social housing grants, housing and council tax benefits, environmental health and food safety in pubs, restaurants and shops, planning services, support for voluntary groups, meals on wheels, facilities for young people, adapting homes for disabled people, play centres for children, cctv installation, sports facilities, issuing taxi licences, flood defences, and many others.
Sorry but I don't want to pay for that stuff. I don't even have a street light near my house, I don't visit the museum, the only thing worth paying for is the fire brigade, emptying the bins and cleaning the streets and looking after the parks. I couldn't give a monkeys about the rest on the list.
Tourism in Trogtown...... Do me a favour ;D
Local government provide services such as police, fire, recycling, refuse collection and removal, schools, leisure centres, park and ride schemes, parks and open spaces, street cleaning, subsidising of public transport, tourism, museums, social housing grants, housing and council tax benefits, environmental health and food safety in pubs, restaurants and shops, planning services, support for voluntary groups, meals on wheels, facilities for young people, adapting homes for disabled people, play centres for children, cctv installation, sports facilities, issuing taxi licences, flood defences, and many others.
Sorry but I don't want to pay for that stuff. I don't even have a street light near my house, I don't visit the museum, the only thing worth paying for is the fire brigade, emptying the bins and cleaning the streets and looking after the parks. I couldn't give a monkeys about the rest on the list.
Tourism in Trogtown...... Do me a favour ;D
Looking outside of your own personal "bubble" are you saying all of the above should be stopped for everyone else then? I don't use all of these services either but what would be the alternative - pay as you go?
redken1
10-02-13, 02:05 PM
Local government provide services such as police, fire, recycling, refuse collection and removal, schools, leisure centres, park and ride schemes, parks and open spaces, street cleaning, subsidising of public transport, tourism, museums, social housing grants, housing and council tax benefits, environmental health and food safety in pubs, restaurants and shops, planning services, support for voluntary groups, meals on wheels, facilities for young people, adapting homes for disabled people, play centres for children, cctv installation, sports facilities, issuing taxi licences, flood defences, and many others.
Sorry but I don't want to pay for that stuff. I don't even have a street light near my house, I don't visit the museum, the only thing worth paying for is the fire brigade, emptying the bins and cleaning the streets and looking after the parks. I couldn't give a monkeys about the rest on the list.
Tourism in Trogtown...... Do me a favour ;D
Looking outside of your own personal "bubble" are you saying all of the above should be stopped for everyone else then? I don't use all of these services either but what would be the alternative - pay as you go?
And I assume you wouldn't bother to call the police if a loved one went missing?
Why should I pay for schools???
redken1
10-02-13, 02:12 PM
Why should I pay for schools???
Why should those without their own transport pay for the roads you use?
Not all tenants living in public housing will be adversely affected by Cameron’s new ‘bedroom tax.’
Tenants residing in the Royal household will receive a 16 per cent rise in benefits from this April, increasing from £31million to £36.1 million courtesy of the taxpayer. >:( :-?
At least the echoes from the false claim, “We are all in this together” have now stopped. :-X
This is costs related and nothing to do with the benefits reduction which cannot apply to Royal Residences..they perform a totally different function than a 3 bed semi in Battersea ::)
P.S. In your ,so far, unexplained Republic presumably these RRs will be demolished and so will no longer be a cost and all the international business and meet/greets will take place in a local Weatherspoons when your leader of the republic---whichever grabbing imbecile from the politicos arselicks their way to the job :-?
Millionaire Labour bruvs the Mealymouths could do it together--rake in even more easy cash.
I know you follow footie Ken so check out Sunderland FC and payment to Dave Mealymouth. Quite a change in son of a pro Marxist anti Capitalist who himself ended up joining the Royal family fighting the Nazi by being in the Royal Navy ---even his Red Army :o grandfather scarppered over here when Poland was invaded.........seems some confusion as to where their loyalyties lie with these former immigrants...guess it is where they can make some easy cash and are safe....................oh! that is in a country that has Constitutional Monarchy isn't it :-?
Wonder what your Labour heros would do if they got their grubby little paws on things by way of republicanism ...historically we know they are utter failures as far as being in government is concerned...........don't bear thinking about :o :P :P
You were saying Ken ;D ;D
redken1
10-02-13, 02:38 PM
Col
If you are going to engage with me in a sensible debate please refrain from making false assumptions about my political affiliation. I have never voted for nor do I support New Labour in its current right-wing form.
My post relating to the Royal household has nothing to do with my Republican views – I was merely attempting to hammer another six inch nail in to the “We are all in this together” coffin.
Although I respect your comments about the function of the Royals, what kind of message do you think their 16 per cent benefit increase award at a time when the poorest 660,000 are facing cuts, sends out to the country? What ever happened to the ‘Mansion tax’?
:)
Engage with you WTF!!!! :o :o :o Who the hell d'ya think you are sunshine !!!!
Well whatever political shade you are it remains that you are always making comment about the Monarchy and have shown yourself to be devoid of any ideas regarding an alternative...I believe admitting once 'I have no idea' ;D
What relevance is Royal Residence costs to the attempts to get Benefit costs reduced ?
Are the places to be demolished and all employees put out of work ? Clearly you don't think they should be paid for by central government funding. Now known as Sovereign Grant apparently which replaced Civil List and is a payment based on money generated from Crown Estates of which the government retains 85%.
Look this Con/Lib lot the world and its grandmother knew would be problematic and have 'knee jerk' policies/ideas regarding the dire financial state the country is in after the Labour social engineering debacle and tax to waste government.
You also completely fail to include the fact that the individuals can appeal their circumstances.
Furthermore the fool Cameron has recently managed to get some reduction in UK payments to EU unfortunately because that treasonous megalomaniac Blair signed some 'no rebate on new entrants' agreement we actually will be paying more which could help these benefit claimants if they were found to genuinely need reappraisal of circumstances.
Don't forget the EU is about to increase subsidy payments to tobacco growers ;D ;D ;D
You will find this an interesting read from time to time...bookmark it
http://order-order.com/
:-* :-* :-* 8-)
redken1
10-02-13, 03:53 PM
"Can appeal their circumstances" ???? ;D ;D ;D
:-X :-X :-X 8-) 8-) 8-)
Why should those without their own transport pay for the roads you use?
Everyone needs roads even those that are house bound, the goods they consume have to be transported.
::) ok they can appeal against a reduction in benefit payment and will be granted amounts to increase their payments if their appeal is upheld following an assessment of their individual circumstances regarding housing..... is that better Ken :P :-*
redken1
10-02-13, 06:17 PM
::) ok they can appeal against a reduction in benefit payment and will be granted amounts to increase their payments if their appeal is upheld following an assessment of their individual circumstances regarding housing..... is that better Ken :P :-*
Reality check?? ;)
I could be wrong, but don't you need a fixed address to appeal against benefit cuts? ;) :-*
Is this really how low Britain has reached? :'( :'( :'(
'fixed address' this is about housing benefit payments presumably these payments are made to those with a fixed address .....I wouldn't be surprised that the previous Labour imbeciles did allow benefits to be sent abroad afterall we pay foreigners child benefit or whatever it's called don't we :-? :(
By the way government borrowing is still spiralling totally out of control and you'll be surprised to have revealed to you the fact that the current halfwits are going to borrow £ billions more ..
'Despite cuts to benefits levels, social security spending was likely to rise from 28.5% to 32.5% of all public spending by 2017-18, the IFS said.'
Quite simply there have not been enough 'cuts' and the problem is government itself and needs a radical overhaul in every area
Additionally you cannot have a vibrant economy when even those in work are recipients of benefits :o ------this is the economy of fools and an indication that the 'system' is faulty. The AAA financial rating of the UK is likely to reduce to A+ or lower and this will have the effect of increased interest payments to service the national debt :'( :'( that will mean much higher taxation because the fools in government haven't the will to reduce the State
Did you know when there was a British Empire there were only 4000 civil servants :P and the Roman Empire ignoring the Emperor at its peak had about 600 in the Senate then levels of judges,consuls and magistrates...........wonder how many paper shufflers on decent salaries do we have running this rapidly declining country??
This leads me to believe it is now ............. Pub time :D
redken1
10-02-13, 07:47 PM
Great idea Col - pub time I mean [smiley=thumbsup.gif] :)
Well at least you have partially been shown the actual reality of the fragile situation the nation is in and that the current government really are failing to deliver policy that will reduce deficit.
I note you have failed to respond with anything of substance ;D ;D :-*
redken1
11-02-13, 06:45 AM
Well at least you have partially been shown the actual reality of the fragile situation the nation is in and that the current government really are failing to deliver policy that will reduce deficit.
I note you have failed to respond with anything of substance ;D ;D :-*
Col, is there really much point when you will make your own assumptions anyway.
Despite my numerous attempts to correct you, you insist on labelling me as a ‘Labour hero’ worshiper. :-* :) 8-)
Why should those without their own transport pay for the roads you use?
Everyone needs roads even those that are house bound, the goods they consume have to be transported.
and you need someone who can read and write to drive the lorry....
Are you saying all lorry drivers can read and write?? If so I bet you're wrong.
Ducatista
20-02-13, 07:51 PM
I'm not up on lorry driving tests, but I certainly never got tested for literacy when passing my riding/driving tests ?????
Many driving jobs may involve additional skills like form filling, but I'm sure they all don't.
redken1
20-02-13, 08:19 PM
Of course you don’t need to be able to read and write to drive a lorry.
In the context of the point under discussion however, I doubt very much that a reputable haulage firm would offer a job to a driver who could not read or right, especially at a time when an employer can afford to be choosy. :-?
I mean come on – you need a degree to carry out the most basic (of equal importance) role within the cogs of society’s wheel nowadays.
Of course you don’t need to be able to read and write to drive a lorry.
In the context of the point under discussion however, I doubt very much that a reputable haulage firm would offer a job to a driver who could not read or right, especially at a time when an employer can afford to be choosy. :-?
I mean come on – you need a degree to carry out the most basic (of equal importance) role within the cogs of society’s wheel nowadays.
.......or spell :-?
redken1
20-02-13, 08:59 PM
Of course you don’t need to be able to read and write to drive a lorry.
In the context of the point under discussion however, I doubt very much that a reputable haulage firm would offer a job to a driver who could not read or right, especially at a time when an employer can afford to be choosy. :-?
I mean come on – you need a degree to carry out the most basic (of equal importance) role within the cogs of society’s wheel nowadays.
.......or spell :-?
Sometimes you just have to hold your hands-up. :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
How ironic - that's my lorry driving career over before it started - write? :D ;D
Ps. thanks Col for bringing that to my attention - you can pay for the pints now. ;) ;D
mmmm seems I'm now a member of the 'Spelling Inquisition'.......you may get a poke with a cushion !!!! [Monty Python :) ]
Couldn't resist it Ken ;D
pints ??? errrrr ummmm do what ?? eh!! what was that....bad connection can't read a thing on here :D
redken1
20-02-13, 09:23 PM
mmmm seems I'm now a member of the 'Spelling Inquisition'.......you may get a poke with a cushion !!!! [Monty Python :) ]
Couldn't resist it Ken ;D
pints ??? errrrr ummmm do what ?? eh!! what was that....bad connection can't read a thing on here :D
What made it worse was the fact that I was commenting about reading and righting (writing) :-[
All great fun mate. ;D
Ken’s proverb :D
He who pitches tent on high moral ground must keep tight guy ropes.
I’ll be keeping a close eye on yours for you Col
;) :D ;D :)
Local government provide services such as police, fire, recycling, refuse collection and removal, schools, leisure centres, park and ride schemes, parks and open spaces, street cleaning, subsidising of public transport, tourism, museums, social housing grants, housing and council tax benefits, environmental health and food safety in pubs, restaurants and shops, planning services, support for voluntary groups, meals on wheels, facilities for young people, adapting homes for disabled people, play centres for children, cctv installation, sports facilities, issuing taxi licences, flood defences, and many others.
Sorry but I don't want to pay for that stuff. I don't even have a street light near my house, I don't visit the museum, the only thing worth paying for is the fire brigade, emptying the bins and cleaning the streets and looking after the parks. I couldn't give a monkeys about the rest on the list.
Tourism in Trogtown...... Do me a favour ;D
Ahhh the old "as long as I'm alright, screw everyone else" policy...
You're right of course, why should you pay for adapting a home for a disabled/elderly person who is unable to live in a normal house and unable to fund these modifications themselves? Screw them, right? Let's just hope that you either have the funds or never need to use such modifications. We should also stop their meals on wheels as well, they shouldn't have access to decent meals, if they can't make it themselves then let 'em starve, should help curb the welfare budget a bit more at least.
Of course we have no need for the Police either, if someone gets attacked or their home broken into the last thing we want is for them to be able to call someone for help, they should just suck it up and move on, right? Victims of hit and runs should either die quietly or live with the consequences, let's hope that you never get someone pull out in front of you and then vanish safe in the knowledge that there is no one you can call to help you find them, especially as you have also gotten rid of the CCTV covering that street cos you didn't want to pay for that either.
We should close all the museums and sell off the items they hold, they're only places for kids to go on school field trips after all. It shouldn't be available for the public to view, it should be in private collections for the privileged few to see. Items such as the incredibly rare and valuable sutton hoo treasure should be sent to 'cash for gold' or sold to a rich foreign collector never to be enjoyed by the public.
Park and ride schemes and subsidised public should be scrapped, we need more cars in our town and city centres, it's like riding through a ghost town at rush hour at the moment.
We don't really need street cleaners either, obviously all that litter will pick itself up, and of course it will never find it's way onto the road and cause a problem for bikes, if it does and we get a puncture we can just buy more tyres, they're cheap enough.
Don't get me started on housing and council tax benefits, if disabled, elderly or people on low incomes can't afford to put a roof over their heads then they can live on the streets, right? These people are a drain on society and should be abandoned to save everyone else a bit of cash, after all, it's all about you, right?
Who need's food safety in our cafes, pubs and restaurants, it's not important, who cares if they clean their kitchens properly or not? It doesn't really matter if their cook, prepare and store their food properly, E.coli, Salmonella and tapeworms are not fatal to the majority, and those who do die from them, well that's just natural selection. What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger an all that.
You know there isn't enough young people wandering the streets in the evenings, they are all in those safe facilities that we provide. They should all be out roaming the streets, at least they won't be able to vandalise any playgrounds because we not longer fund them. Of course you never went to the local playground with your friends, as that was a free service that you don't believe the public should fund, or now that you're an adult, you think the younger people of today shouldn't have access to the same facilities you enjoyed as a 'young person'?
What's with all these schools? we don't need to educate our children, we should take a lesson from the Victorians and send them all to work down the pits or in work houses (or rather we can't because we disposed of all the items and information we had in our museums about the Victorian age). Who needs an educated workforce, we can import educated people if we need them and parents can just quit work to look after their kids once we close all the schools. I trust that you never bothered with school, as you didn't want to burden the taxpayer? I don't know if you have kids, but I assume that if you do that you don't want them to have an education and keep them out of school? Do you also tell your friends and family with children that they shouldn't be sending their kids to school as you don't think you should pay for it, even though you benefit from it? Must make you very popular...
Obviously you don't live in a place that will suffer from flooding, ever? as for those people who are not as lucky, well screw them! It's not you that's suffering so it's obviously not important, and it's all about making sure you're alright, everyone else can go jump.
Vote Hunar! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
Vote Hunar! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
Ditto!
Obviously you don't live in a place that will suffer from flooding, ever?
Obviously I'm not stupid enough to buy a house built on a flood plain. If my house gets flooded the museum will be visited by fish ;D
Council are renown for spending money on wasteful stuff just to keep their budgets up.
As for CCTV don't get me started on that.
Obviously you don't live in a place that will suffer from flooding, ever?
Obviously I'm not stupid enough to buy a house built on a flood plain. If my house gets flooded the museum will be visited by fish ;D
Council are renown for spending money on wasteful stuff just to keep their budgets up.
As for CCTV don't get me started on that.
So any friends or family who find their homes flooded, their possessions ruined, and all the associated problems with insurance, accomodation and repairs shouldn't count on you for help or support, after all they are stupid enough to buy a house in an area that might get flooded? Although they can rely on you to tell them how mentally deficient they are compared to you I take it?
You won't get any argument from me that council's waste lots of money on some things, making sure there are top quality biscuits and drinks available for meetings for example, but we should be cutting those bills rather than cutting services that people rely on.
CCTV is a contentious issue, personally I don't mind the camera themselves, it's what they are used for in some cases that bothers me. I understand that not everyone shares my point of view and would rather they all got removed, I assume that from your comment that you are in this camp? So if you, a family member or a friend was the victim of an assault, burglary or a hit and run and there was CCTV evidence that identified the perpetrator and would seal a conviction, you would ask for that evidence to be removed and not used?
Vote Hunar! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
Ditto!
You know it makes sense chaps :)
Are you saying all lorry drivers can read and write?? If so I bet you're wrong.
Hmmm... road signs must be interesting..... :D
Are you saying all lorry drivers can read and write?? If so I bet you're wrong.
Hmmm... road signs must be interesting..... :D
They are pictures for a reason :)
Sorry Humar but I have no sympathy for someone that buys a house in an area that is prone to flooding.
Sorry Humar but I have no sympathy for someone that buys a house in an area that is prone to flooding.
What about those people who got flooded for the first time? When we got hit with 'extreme rainfall' last year, many areas got flooded for the first time. You also have a knock on effect that the more insurance companies have to pay out, the higher you own insurance costs will rise to help pay for it. Of course the value of your house would go up, which will be nice for you, but thousands of people would have huge amounts wiped off theirs, still, never mind.
So the question about the CCTV footage? If you are completely against them, would you refuse the use of footage to prove your innocence or prove the guilt of someone who assaulted or stole from you, a friend or family member?
Given the choice of a world with or without CCTV I'd go for without.
Anyone that buys a house near a river or on the same level as a river knowing that floods are becoming more common needs their head tested.
Ducatista
21-02-13, 03:40 PM
Anyone that buys a house near a river or on the same level as a river knowing that floods are becoming more common needs their head tested.
I'd agree, but what about people that make a sensible decision and find the council let them down or the builders leave blocked drains or simply too much rain in their area?
I am all for people having to take personal responsibility for their decisions (more than most) but not everything that happens is forseeable or the result of a bad decision - life simply isnt' that black and white.
It really doesn''t help anyone to say that people are responsible for the situations they find themselves in. Sometimes they are, sometimes their not.
Anyone that buys a house near a river or on the same level as a river knowing that floods are becoming more common needs their head tested.
I'd agree, but what about people that make a sensible decision and find the council let them down or the builders leave blocked drains or simply too much rain in their area?
I am all for people having to take personal responsibility for their decisions (more than most) but not everything that happens is foreseeable or the result of a bad decision - life simply isnt' that black and white.
It really doesn''t help anyone to say that people are responsible for the situations they find themselves in. Sometimes they are, sometimes their not.
That's because you are looking at it from a reasonable point of view, with some compassion for others in difficulty. You have to look at it from Swanny's point of view, which appears to be more along the lines of "as long as I'm alright, f**k everyone else", which would apparently also include his family and friends as well as general members of the public. I don't agree with that point of view personally, my grandparents have had their homes modified to enable them to stay in their own homes, I know he doesn't think that the tax payer should fund that, but that's because he can't see beyond his own selfishness. During the war my grandmother was a land army girl, one grandfather was part of the 3rd wave to hit Normandy beaches on D-day and his job was to take ammunition's and grenades from dead and dying soldiers to feed the front line, my other grandfather was in the SAS. He was dropped behind enemy lines to knock out supply depots and other targets, when the war finished he was sent ahead of the rest of our troops to ensure that all remaining German troops where captured or 'neutralised' and it was his unit that came across the concentration camps before everyone else, he said you can tell when you're approaching one of those camps a week before you found it because of the smell of death in the air even if the wind was blowing in the wrong direction. I can't begin to imagine what horrors they witnessed during their service.
I am sure to reasonable people wold agree that we should do everything we can to help people like my grandparents, when you consider what they have done for us. I guess not everyone is that reasonable, and couldn't care less what happened to these people. Of course should Swanny ever need these services and isn't in a position to afford them, I doubt very much he would refuse them if the state offered them to him. Having a "f**k everyone else attitude" is all well and good, but very few of the people that have that attitude will stick by their morals and principles when it's their turn to need help.
His arguments are easy to pick apart, hence the lack of response to my other points, because his argument doesn't stand up to rational debate.
pilninggas
21-02-13, 09:54 PM
Anyone that buys a house near a river or on the same level as a river knowing that floods are becoming more common needs their head tested.
I'd agree, but what about people that make a sensible decision and find the council let them down or the builders leave blocked drains or simply too much rain in their area?
I am all for people having to take personal responsibility for their decisions (more than most) but not everything that happens is foreseeable or the result of a bad decision - life simply isnt' that black and white.
It really doesn''t help anyone to say that people are responsible for the situations they find themselves in. Sometimes they are, sometimes their not.
That's because you are looking at it from a reasonable point of view, with some compassion for others in difficulty. You have to look at it from Swanny's point of view, which appears to be more along the lines of "as long as I'm alright, f**k everyone else", which would apparently also include his family and friends as well as general members of the public. I don't agree with that point of view personally, my grandparents have had their homes modified to enable them to stay in their own homes, I know he doesn't think that the tax payer should fund that, but that's because he can't see beyond his own selfishness. During the war my grandmother was a land army girl, one grandfather was part of the 3rd wave to hit Normandy beaches on D-day and his job was to take ammunition's and grenades from dead and dying soldiers to feed the front line, my other grandfather was in the SAS. He was dropped behind enemy lines to knock out supply depots and other targets, when the war finished he was sent ahead of the rest of our troops to ensure that all remaining German troops where captured or 'neutralised' and it was his unit that came across the concentration camps before everyone else, he said you can tell when you're approaching one of those camps a week before you found it because of the smell of death in the air even if the wind was blowing in the wrong direction. I can't begin to imagine what horrors they witnessed during their service.
I am sure to reasonable people wold agree that we should do everything we can to help people like my grandparents, when you consider what they have done for us. I guess not everyone is that reasonable, and couldn't care less what happened to these people. Of course should Swanny ever need these services and isn't in a position to afford them, I doubt very much he would refuse them if the state offered them to him. Having a "f**k everyone else attitude" is all well and good, but very few of the people that have that attitude will stick by their morals and principles when it's their turn to need help.
His arguments are easy to pick apart, hence the lack of response to my other points, because his argument doesn't stand up to rational debate.
I don't think that Swanny was taking the 'f*ck everyone else' approach. I live in an area with high crime, when I moved to the area I knew full well insurance would be dearer and that the potential for me to be a victim of crime would be higher. I took a knowing risk.
In the seven years i have lived here I have been been the victim of crime 6 times (attempted break-in and theft amongst other things).
Now I knew the risks, but I still decided to live here - I've never moaned once [possibly about the police's slow response!] and the useless uncaring local MP. A lot of people told me I needed my head reading and still do, maybe they are right. I'll tell you something i don't expect anyone else to foot the bill for my higher insurance costs, the additional measures i have to take etc. Personal responsibility seems to be dirty-phrase these days.
On a footnote, i do think we should cut overseas aid and plough that into long term flood prevention, but of course that also puts me as 'f*ck the rest' type by some of your measures, as I don't give 2-sh1ts about foreign aid to some dictator-ran african hell hole. :P
Humar I certainly don't have a **** everyone else approach, I just don't like to see my tax wasted on **** we don't need. And even more I don't want my tax wasted on people that buy houses in high risk flood zones.
By the way I too have war heroes in my family :P
Humar I certainly don't have a **** everyone else approach......
I would refer you to reply #13 on this thread - read what you wrote there and you'll see that you have just contradicted yourself. If you are unable to see this, try Specsavers...
wiltshire builders
22-02-13, 12:05 AM
Can I point out that practically everyone has a relative that was part of the war effort. Bringing it up means nothing and is just basking in reflective glory.
You can't pick and choose what your taxes, rates etc are used for. I got thrown out of a council tennants house today after fitting a £6000 central heating system which was free because at the end of the job there was a 1ft area of fine dust on the floor. She doesnt apreciate or deserve the safety net that has been put in place for her. Should we scrap it? No, because there are people whos lives depend on it. That's the way it works.
If you want to opt out of society, go for it. You won't be missed.
I don't think that Swanny was taking the 'f*ck everyone else' approach. I live in an area with high crime, when I moved to the area I knew full well insurance would be dearer and that the potential for me to be a victim of crime would be higher. I took a knowing risk.
In the seven years i have lived here I have been been the victim of crime 6 times (attempted break-in and theft amongst other things).
Now I knew the risks, but I still decided to live here - I've never moaned once [possibly about the police's slow response!] and the useless uncaring local MP. A lot of people told me I needed my head reading and still do, maybe they are right. I'll tell you something i don't expect anyone else to foot the bill for my higher insurance costs, the additional measures i have to take etc. Personal responsibility seems to be dirty-phrase these days.
On a footnote, i do think we should cut overseas aid and plough that into long term flood prevention, but of course that also puts me as 'f*ck the rest' type by some of your measures, as I don't give 2-sh1ts about foreign aid to some dictator-ran african hell hole. :P
That would suggest that you have not read his posts, as Scotty has pointed out, read reply #13. I would suggest that someone who thinks that the tax payer shouldn't fund modifications to homes so that disabled people, who are unable to fund these modifications themselves, have a better quality of life and retain their independence for longer, or believes that people on low incomes or find themselves unable to get a job should receive no help with housing and council tax costs, who believes that we shouldn't fund schools to educate our children, has a "f**k everyone else" attitude.
As you said, you where aware of the high crime levels in your area when you moved in, so I guess that in that respect you shouldn't be surprised when you become a victim, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't complain about it, or try and get something done about it. What if you where not aware though, or what if the area had a very low level of crime and then after you moved in the crime levels rose dramatically, would your position remain the same? Would you still be happy about having to fork out the extra on insurance and additional measures? or would you be demanding that when you moved in you believed it to be a safe area, and something should be done now that it's more risky? A situation that many flood victims found themselves in last year.
As for the foreign aid budget, I think that is something that we should be immensely proud of. I agree that in some places we need to evaluate how that money is spent, but I think the fact that we are helping those less fortunate than ourselves is something that we, as a nation, can and should feel very good about. I just want to be sure that I understand you point of view correctly, we shouldn't help the men, women and children of a country who are suffering, starving and dying because of the person/s in charge? That's fairly harsh don't you think? Cutting the aid budget would also mean that people who do need our help, that don't live in an dictator-ran African hell hole, would also suffer, and to what end? so that we can afford to shop at Waitrose rather than Aldi? Given the choice I would rather shop at Aldi, and know that with my help an innocent child might live to see adulthood, or a village gets clean and safe drinking water. That's just me though, I would rather lend a helping hand than turn a blind eye and ignore the suffering. I would challenge you to visit some of these places and see the suffering for yourself, and then see if you still hold the same view that we shouldn't help them, and they should be left to suffer.
Humar I certainly don't have a **** everyone else approach, I just don't like to see my tax wasted on **** we don't need. And even more I don't want my tax wasted on people that buy houses in high risk flood zones.
By the way I too have war heroes in my family :P
I believe you said that YOU shouldn't pay for things that YOU don't want, not things that you THINK we (society in general) don't need.
As Scotty pointed out, read reply #13 on this thread which you wrote and explain to me how you not wanting to help disabled people live in their own homes or get a decent meal delivered isn't a "f**k them" attitude? I have already raised this and other points in a previous post, I note that you have not responded to the majority of those points and just picked out the point about flooding. Perhaps if you did that would go someway to helping me understand how it isn't a "f**k them" type of attitude that you put across in reply #13.
I hope those war heroes in your family are rich enough to pay for their own home modifications if they need them now or in the future, from your comments I trust they would receive no help from you? How about the more recent batch of heroes who come home with limbs blown off and other physical and mental disabilities? we, or you, shouldn't bother to help them either? Or how about a regular member of the public, who has never served in our armed forces but has a disability which means that in order to live as much of an independent life as possible they need some modifications to their home, but their disability prevents them from working to earn the money to pay for them? I can remind you of what you said in case you're not sure,
Local government provide services such as adapting homes for disabled people. Sorry but I don't want to pay for that stuff, I couldn't give a monkeys
Sounds like a "F**k them" attitude to me, but I could be wrong, I would be interested in undertanding how it isn't though.
Oh and it's HUNAR :)
Can I point out that practically everyone has a relative that was part of the war effort. Bringing it up means nothing and is just basking in reflective glory.
You can't pick and choose what your taxes, rates etc are used for. I got thrown out of a council tennants house today after fitting a £6000 central heating system which was free because at the end of the job there was a 1ft area of fine dust on the floor. She doesnt apreciate or deserve the safety net that has been put in place for her. Should we scrap it? No, because there are people whos lives depend on it. That's the way it works.
If you want to opt out of society, go for it. You won't be missed.
My apologies if being proud of what my grandparents have done offends you. Bringing it up isn't about basking in reflective glory at all. I was trying to make the point that saying the tax payer shouldn't fund modifications to a disabled persons home is kinda harsh considering what some of those disabled people have done for us, and that was the best example I could think of, if you let me know what your relatives did I would be happy to include their efforts should I need to make this point again, but I was not privy to that information at the time.
I bet it must cost you a fortune when you go shopping around Bath giving money to all the street beggers being that you're such a kind and caring person. How are you ever going to manage when the financial system collapses?
Surprisingly all the members of my family that served in the war are dead.
By the way you should educate yourself about who the real dictators are today.
wiltshire builders
22-02-13, 10:38 AM
Can I point out that practically everyone has a relative that was part of the war effort. Bringing it up means nothing and is just basking in reflective glory.
You can't pick and choose what your taxes, rates etc are used for. I got thrown out of a council tennants house today after fitting a £6000 central heating system which was free because at the end of the job there was a 1ft area of fine dust on the floor. She doesnt apreciate or deserve the safety net that has been put in place for her. Should we scrap it? No, because there are people whos lives depend on it. That's the way it works.
If you want to opt out of society, go for it. You won't be missed.
My apologies if being proud of what my grandparents have done offends you. Bringing it up isn't about basking in reflective glory at all. I was trying to make the point that saying the tax payer shouldn't fund modifications to a disabled persons home is kinda harsh considering what some of those disabled people have done for us, and that was the best example I could think of, if you let me know what your relatives did I would be happy to include their efforts should I need to make this point again, but I was not privy to that information at the time.
Oh so deeply offended ;D ;D ;D
I bet it must cost you a fortune when you go shopping around Bath giving money to all the street beggers being that you're such a kind and caring person. How are you ever going to manage when the financial system collapses?
Surprisingly all the members of my family that served in the war are dead.
By the way you should educate yourself about who the real dictators are today.
I rarely if ever got to bath, but if I see a homeless person on the street in Swindon, and I have a few coins in my pocket I will get them a hot snack or drink. If I don't have any money then I don't, simple as that.
Now are you going to answer the points I raised or continue to avoid them?
Ducatista
22-02-13, 11:17 AM
Swanny : care to have a go at the BBC calculator
Tax: Do you give more than you get?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13633966
I'll show you mine if you show me yours ;)
Swanny : care to have a go at the BBC calculator
Tax: Do you give more than you get?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13633966
I'll show you mine if you show me yours ;)
I've done it - no real surpises for me. I might be out of the ordinary in this respect, but in general I'm quite comfortable with the way my taxes are spent although, like everyone else, I have my biases over how I would like to have them spent. I'm quite happy for it to be spent on all those things mentioned even if they don't affect me because that's the society that I prefer to live in.
The point that WB makes in that we have no choice over what our taxes are spent on is 100% correct on a day by day basis and frankly I can't see a real alternative as the whole of our society is managed and budgeted that way. This is not a matter of party politics - I see it as this is the way we, as a society, choose to operate. This is nothing new. If individuals don't want to live in that society then simply they should make the choice to leave it. Only society itself can change the way it operates, not an individual. As ever, in my humble opinion of course..... ;)
Society as we know it is about to collapse so none of the above really matters anyway
Keep doing just enough to give yourself a smug little feeling ;D
Someone's been on an Advanced Trolling Course and picked up a few tips? ;D ;D ;)
Yea I would say that's you. :P
wiltshire builders
22-02-13, 02:08 PM
Yea I would say that's you. :P
TRANSLATION: "I know you are, you said you are, but what am I? :P "
There's nothing like a grown up debate.....and this certainly is nothing like it.
redken1
22-02-13, 08:11 PM
“If individuals don't want to live in that society then simply they should make the choice to leave it. Only society itself can change the way it operates, not an individual.”
Not so sure supporters of Mahatma Gandhi and Nelson Mandela would agree with that point of view. Instead of simply leaving, an individual can choose to follow an alternative path and try to persuade other individuals that a fairer and more caring society is possible.
Who knows, if it was not for Gandhi, Indian society could still be under British rule and without Mandela’s decades of campaigning, the black inhabitants could still be living under a system of racial segregation in South Africa.
When we discuss ‘personal/individual responsibility’ and ‘life choices’ I think it is important to remember that not everyone is born (and lives their whole lives) without mental and/or physical disabilities and not everyone is presented with the same level of opportunities throughout their lives.
“Equality of opportunity” is simply a sound-bite often spouted by politicians and most certainly does not exist throughout every level of our society.
Governments really don't like people trying to live outside of the system they've set up. I'd love to claim sovereignty but know how difficult that is.
Swanny : care to have a go at the BBC calculator
Tax: Do you give more than you get?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13633966
I'll show you mine if you show me yours ;)
Don't forget the government taxes you on everything you buy as well as income tax.
redken1
22-02-13, 09:44 PM
Governments really don't like people trying to live outside of the system they've set up. I'd love to claim sovereignty but know how difficult that is.
With respect Swanny, governments are made up of people. People control goverments. If we are allowing the 'tail to wag the dog' then that is a weakness in the people, not the government.
Loving the action here..where's me popcorn smiley 8-)
regarding the waffle about flooding and having a house on a flood plain....
errrrrrrr I like Hunars signature sentence ;D ;D
Loving the action here..where's me popcorn smiley 8-)
regarding the waffle about flooding and having a house on a flood plain....
errrrrrrr I like Hunars signature sentence ;D ;D
I quite like yours, with a little addition
"beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy, weed proves he wants us to live in peace"
toke toke pass...
Ducatista
23-02-13, 08:32 AM
Don't forget the government taxes you on everything you buy as well as income tax.
I don't believe it's everything (for example some goods are VAT free) but I take your point.
However don't forget that ALL of us take from the system in some way. Whether that be refuse collection, street lighting, NHS, police etc. etc.
The vast majority of people in this country are actually takers. Yes they pay tax, but they also take in either direct benefits or indirectly via schools, NHS, refuse collection.
Unless you are a genuine hermit who lives in the woods off rabbits then you will be using such services.
If you are on an average salary then you are probably a taker and not a giver.
I'm not saying I have any issue with (genuine) takers - I don't. Simply that most people are quick to assess what they put it, without counting the cost of what they take out whether it's via hospitals, police, school, army keeping the peace etc.
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