View Full Version : Have people forgotten how to use their indicators!
Nico_babe
21-02-13, 10:59 AM
Have to have a rant here. Am sick to death of people on the motorways changing lanes by just drifting across and not indicating. Its a silly habit to get into and when the biking season starts we will all need to be that much more alert!
Damn F**&&^^^ MORONS!
+1 ! It's definitely on the increase. I notice it a lot on my daily commute these days.
Bastids! >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
wiltshire builders
21-02-13, 11:38 AM
The 2 roundabouts by Sainsburys in Chippenham are the worst closely followed by the mini roundabout at Hathaway.
I remonstrated (shouted at) a woman for this once and she told me, with a straight face, "you don't need to indicate when turning right" :o
You need one of these http://www.franktherealbiker.com/RockerLauncher.cfm? ;D ;D
I hate the arseholes that sit in the middle lane of,the motorway >:(
Geordie Stu
22-02-13, 10:11 AM
I hate the arseholes that sit in the middle lane of,the motorway >:(
Agree with you Swanny on the CLODS. Indicators ::) not inidcating or the last minute indicators.
While driving or riding I've started using the 2 second rule...
When a vehicle passes a stationary object if you can't count too 2 before you pass the same object then your too close.
"Only a fool breaks the 2 second rule" takes about 2 seconds to say the phrase. Don't believe me try it :P
gary.riley
22-02-13, 01:22 PM
There are also those who think that on a motorway/duel carriageway that think it is their god given right to indicate and then pull out without ever looking one to see what is outside them. I've had many occasions where I've had to brake sharply whilst some fool tries to drive into the side of me!
gary.riley
22-02-13, 01:23 PM
'duel' indeed. Should read dual. It's just what it feels like sometimes - a duel!
Squashed_Fly
22-02-13, 04:31 PM
Just to put the cat among the pidgeons, indication is only necessary when there are other vehicles around, within close enough proximity to be affected by actionds if you don't.
You're assuming the driver has seen you. I always indicate when there is traffic around me, but not on empty roads, or when cars are far behind/in front. I also see enough biker twats on the motorway weaving in and out of the quicker 2 lanes to 'make progress' without indicating (or even shoulder checking most times!), and in fact riding a hell of a lot more dangerously than the average driver is driving!
...and if no other vehicles (and their drivers) are around, nobody will be there to observe them not indicating their intentions to perform a manoeuvre, so the point of this post is what exactly? :-?
Now you're an ex-biker SF, you can sit with the car drivers on the other side of the fence and snipe at bikers' antics can't you?
Senna(Dan)
22-02-13, 09:47 PM
This is becoming common place and most roads.
It is frustrating because as a relatively inexperienced rider, compared to some on the forum, you are always expecting the worst. I now look for the swerve to the left before the one flash indication.
I had to resort to the good old fashioned horn in the car the other day because a rather ignorant Range Rover driver couldn't move his ham arms round the steering wheel, he was not pleased when I blasted the horn to remind him that there are other road users not just him in his Chelsea tractor.
redken1
22-02-13, 10:05 PM
When on the bike I try and avoid motorways whenever possible, simply because I become bored stiff. On the rare occasions when I do use them, however, I always ride presuming that every road user in front of me will switch lanes without warning.
I find giving early indication, a wide berth and maximising the bike’s acceleration to make decisive overtaking manoeuvres helps to stay alive.
Geordie Stu
23-02-13, 02:39 PM
Just to put the cat among the pidgeons PIGEONS, indication is only necessary when there are other vehicles around, within close enough proximity to be affected by actionds ACTIONS if you don't.
You're assuming the driver has seen you. I always indicate when there is traffic around me, but not on empty roads, or when cars are far behind/in front. I also see enough biker twats on the motorway weaving in and out of the quicker 2 lanes to 'make progress' without indicating (or even shoulder checking most times!), and in fact riding a hell of a lot more dangerously than the average driver is driving!
Never assume the Driver has seen you. As for "biker twats" A typical reaction from a car driver ::)
Conehead
23-02-13, 03:19 PM
I always ensure I use the indicators, be it using the car or bike, empty roads or not. Best to be in the habit rather than not as you never know when something might happen.
I usually ride/drive defensively by keeping an eye on others as you never know what they are going to do. NEVER assume they will do what they are meant to do.
Before anyone gets on their high horses, I am not perfect, I do make mistakes and I am only human.
I always ensure I use the indicators, be it using the car or bike, empty roads or not. Best to be in the habit rather than not as you never know when something might happen.
I usually ride/drive defensively by keeping an eye on others as you never know what they are going to do. NEVER assume they will do what they are meant to do.
Before anyone gets on their high horses, I am not perfect, I do make mistakes and I am only human.
Quite agree
Im the same....I try to use indicators whether there is anyone around or not....what difference does it make anyway if no-ones about ?? Its hardly a waste of energy is it...I mean is it sooo hard to flick that little sticky out thing that operates the indicators ?? For me, checking the mirror to see if anyone will be affected by my non indication requires much more thought than a carrying out an operation I am in the habit of doing anyway.
To me an indication of intention is always worth it just in case I didnt notice a speedy bike or car that has appeared behind me.
;D ;D ;D
Another point I shall make regarding motorway driving
A chap I used to work with told me about a crash that he was witness to on the M4 quite a while back.
A person was in the outside lane and was moving into the middle lane without indicating.....another person was coming out of the inside lane to overtake at the same sort of time......they hit each other cos the outside lane driver had not indicated so inside lane driver pulled out as the lane was clear and they both collided.
Please dont throw a load of accusations about who was right and wrong n stuff cos I dont know the answers........all I know is the story made me start indicating when changing lanes AFTER overtaking (instead of just drifting across, which I used to do) as well as before overtaking too.
Bonnielass
24-02-13, 09:17 AM
Non indication is my biggest hate on the roads, I've often wondered whether to ask Mark Able whether they have stopped teaching new drivers to indicate! The trouble is you end up trying to guess what the driver is going to do and this can end up in some very nasty accidents! I spend half my time shouting to other drivers, INDICATE!!! >:( >:(
I spend half my time shouting to other drivers, INDICATE!!! >:( >:(
.. Can't hear you with your helmet on Rosie !!!!! ;) ;) ;) :)
Bonnielass
24-02-13, 10:55 AM
:) :)
redken1
24-02-13, 10:55 AM
If you put too many animals from any species in to too small a confined space they will end up fighting with each other.
Humans are no different in that regard – our roads are too congested and over capacitated. I had never heard of the term road-rage when I started out as a road-user in the mid 70s, but now I witness it on a daily basis.
IMHO we will reach such a level of saturation on our roads that we will be faced with two choices. Either do nothing allowing the status quo of a gridlocked roads network to remain, or encourage more public transport use by making it a more affordable alternative.
wiltshire builders
24-02-13, 07:01 PM
Just to put the cat among the pidgeons, indication is only necessary when there are other vehicles around, within close enough proximity to be affected by actionds if you don't.
And what about pedestrians or cyclists that you might not have seen?
It's not just other cars and bikes. You should ALWAYS indicate.
It's just laziness not to indicate
Squashed_Fly
25-02-13, 08:55 AM
Lol, I thought it would be too diffcult for some people to comprehend it's possible to be a biker and a driver. And yes, just as many bikers behave like dicks on the road as drivers do.
And I'm sure you are all perfect when you do both?
I've never "sat on the side of the drivers". There is no side. But do I operate more than one type of vehicle? Yes. Do I spend a disproportionate amount of time to most people on the road? Yes
So I'm not really sure what Scotty's post is about, other than his usual, 'I don't actually have a point to to make so I'll slag someone off instead' type of post.
If you refer back to the highway code, there are no specific rules about when you should or should not indicate, just that when it is of use to other road users. That is subjective to what you [think you] know about what is going on around you, and what you can see.
If you are unobservant, and haven't seen a car in your mirrors (or a bike), you don't need to indicate. However, and this the clincher, if your lack of observancy (and thus indication) was the contributing factor in an accident, then you could be prosecuted for driving without due care and attention. But not specifically for lack of indicator use.
That said, I do tend to use mine more often than not, not for any other reason than it's a habit when I'm turning. But if I'm crossing lanes on a motorway, and I can't see anyone close enough to me to be affected by my actions, then usually I wouldn't bother.
As for car drivers vs bike riders, get off your high horse and stop pretending you are a higher being. We're all human, and we all sometimes make mistakes. If you drive like a twat or ride like one deliberately, then you're a twat. If you make a mistake when generally trying to be cautious, you are human. And it is acceptable.
Squashed_Fly
25-02-13, 09:02 AM
Just to put the cat among the pidgeons, indication is only necessary when there are other vehicles around, within close enough proximity to be affected by actionds if you don't.
And what about pedestrians or cyclists that you might not have seen?
It's not just other cars and bikes. You should ALWAYS indicate.
Just to clarify, I did mean from a highway code perspective, not my own opinion. However on a long strech of open motorway, there tends not to be too many pedestrians and cyclists (and I believe that's what the post was referring to -not turning left from a road or roundabout)! ;)
Richzx10r
25-02-13, 09:16 AM
If you put too many animals from any species in to too small a confined space they will end up fighting with each other.
Humans are no different in that regard – our roads are too congested and over capacitated. I had never heard of the term road-rage when I started out as a road-user in the mid 70s, but now I witness it on a daily basis.
IMHO we will reach such a level of saturation on our roads that we will be faced with two choices. Either do nothing allowing the status quo of a gridlocked roads network to remain, or encourage more public transport use by making it a more affordable alternative.
"To small a confined space"? Like this thread? Lol
Richzx10r
25-02-13, 09:17 AM
*Too
redken1
25-02-13, 09:34 AM
R1Rich,
I don't understand what you mean? Please explain.
[quote author=Squashed_Fly link=1361444348/22#22 date=1361782553]If you are unobservant, and haven't seen a car in your mirrors (or a bike), you don't need to indicate. Personally, that's why I always indicate - its a good habit to have for the very reason you just outlined.
But if I'm crossing lanes on a motorway, and I can't see anyone close enough to me to be affected by my actions, then usually I wouldn't bother. I can't see why you would be changing lanes if there's no one around you? If you're moving out to overtake or moving back in after overtaking then surely there are others around who need to see an indication of your anticipated move across the lanes? /quote]
Geordie Stu
25-02-13, 10:10 AM
If you are unobservant, and haven't seen a car in your mirrors (or a bike), you don't need to indicate. However, and this the clincher, if your lack of observancy (and thus indication) was the contributing factor in an accident, then you could be prosecuted for driving without due care and attention. But not specifically for lack of indicator use.
Exactly why the use of indicators is good practise & you are thought to use them when learning to drive/ride.....!
Richzx10r
25-02-13, 11:15 AM
Redken,
The confined space is this thread. As there has already been disagreements. That's all.
Squashed_Fly
25-02-13, 11:28 AM
If you are unobservant, and haven't seen a car in your mirrors (or a bike), you don't need to indicate. However, and this the clincher, if your lack of observancy (and thus indication) was the contributing factor in an accident, then you could be prosecuted for driving without due care and attention. But not specifically for lack of indicator use.
Exactly why the use of indicators is good practise & you are thought to use them when learning to drive/ride.....!
I didn't say it wasn't good practice, or that I disagreed with it. Just highlighting the fact that according the highway code, they are only necessary to warn others of your actions.
If there is no-body in close enough proximity to be affected, by law (not by own opinion I'll say again for those that missed that in all my other posts!!!), you are not required to use them.
If you choose not to, and there is an accident, then you have to hope it wasn't because lack of observation, and/or that you missed something.
It doesn't hurt to be reminded every now and then what the law requires of you, as opposed to what we might call good practice and socially accepted good habits....
Squashed_Fly
25-02-13, 11:29 AM
ps, if you can find me where it says in the highway code that you MUST use your indicators at EVERY change of direction, I'll happily retract and delete all my posts....
redken1
25-02-13, 11:48 AM
Redken,
The confined space is this thread. As there has already been disagreements. That's all.
Obvious now, I thought you meant you liked this thread - sorry, I'm getting slow in my old age Rich. :-[
Brill ;D ;D ;D
If you are unobservant, and haven't seen a car in your mirrors (or a bike), you don't need to indicate. However, and this the clincher, if your lack of observancy (and thus indication) was the contributing factor in an accident, then you could be prosecuted for driving without due care and attention. But not specifically for lack of indicator use.
Exactly why the use of indicators is good practise & you are thought to use them when learning to drive/ride.....!
I didn't say it wasn't good practice, or that I disagreed with it. Just highlighting the fact that according the highway code, they are only necessary to warn others of your actions.
If there is no-body in close enough proximity to be affected, by law (not by own opinion I'll say again for those that missed that in all my other posts!!!), you are not required to use them.
If you choose not to, and there is an accident, then you have to hope it wasn't because lack of observation, and/or that you missed something.
It doesn't hurt to be reminded every now and then what the law requires of you, as opposed to what we might call good practice and socially accepted good habits....
Can you let us know where in the Highway Code it states that its OK not to indicate when you think there are no other road users in close proximity to you? The Highway Code tells you when you should use them, it states nothing at all about when its OK not to. I think you're making a personal assumption in that regard and I don't think therefore the actual law would back you up on that as there is'nt a law on not indicating. Unless you can let us know which law you're referring to of course....
wiltshire builders
25-02-13, 12:24 PM
If an indicator is used but no-one is there to see it, will it flash? - Ancient Swindon Proverb ;D
As for car drivers vs bike riders........ We're all human, and we all sometimes make mistakes. If you drive like a twat or ride like one deliberately, then you're a twat. If you make a mistake when generally trying to be cautious, you are human. And it is acceptable.
Well said :)
As for car drivers vs bike riders........ We're all human, and we all sometimes make mistakes. If you drive like a twat or ride like one deliberately, then you're a twat. If you make a mistake when generally trying to be cautious, you are human. And it is acceptable.
Well said :)
And you can also buy a Twat Suit at any BMW motorcycle dealer today....... ;D ;D
Nico_babe
25-02-13, 02:23 PM
Im sorry but no matter what the Highway code says if you dont use your indicators in my eyes your a TWAT!
Im sorry but no matter what the Highway code says if you dont use your indicators in my eyes your a TWAT!
;D +1
Mways--one flash of indicator and your clear to pullout >:(
and Plod pulled me in once for not indicating when no other vehicles around....except plod who must've interupted another doughnut/coffee break to catch my car up ..........obvio they look and could be an 'indication' [gettit :D] of a pissed driver
He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone
Hands up all those who use their indicator perfectly?
...
Nico_babe
25-02-13, 03:55 PM
ME
He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone
Hands up all those who use their indicator perfectly?
ME!
...
ME
He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone
Hands up all those who use their indicator perfectly?
ME!
Me to! ;D ;D ;D
Ducatista
25-02-13, 04:10 PM
Im sorry but no matter what the Highway code says if you dont use your indicators in my eyes your a TWAT!
So if you are pulling into lane 1 (slow lane) on a motorway after an overtake and all traffic is behind you and going slower and there is no entrance ahead - then what is the benefit of using your indicator? Who will benefit?
Stewboy
25-02-13, 04:10 PM
If an indicator is used but no-one is there to see it, will it flash? - Ancient Swindon Proverb ;D ;D ;D ;D
::) nauseating these holier than thou types.
If there isn't a patron saint for indicator users rest assured Nico_babe and Snowy you are deffo front runners for the role :-*
Stewboy
25-02-13, 04:14 PM
Im sorry but no matter what the Highway code says if you dont use your indicators in my eyes your a TWAT!
;D +1 [smiley=thumbsup.gif]+2
::) nauseating these holier than thou types.
If there isn't a patron saint for indicator users rest assured Nico_babe and Snowy you are deffo front runners for the role :-*
;D ;D ;D ;D
Turning it around the other way, who's going to put their hands up in the air if they don't indicate properly? ;) :) :D ;D :-*
Im sorry but no matter what the Highway code says if you dont use your indicators in my eyes your a TWAT!
Guess you've never done any advanced rider training then ;)
What about fellow road users who simply indicate and go without any observation - plenty of people just indicate on auto because they are so used to it without thinking about what they are doing. That's the ones that scare me when I'm on the road. Someone doing that was responsible for a nasty crash I had a few years ago.
Squashed_Fly
25-02-13, 06:28 PM
Finally, some people who agree with and can back up what I said!
redken1
25-02-13, 06:40 PM
Finally, some people who agree with and can back up what I said!
Remind me, and what was that again exactly. ::) :D ;) ;D
Im sorry but no matter what the Highway code says if you dont use your indicators in my eyes your a TWAT!
What about fellow road users who simply indicate and go without any observation
Ahh..now that's another question altogether, you're moving the context away from "do you" or " don't you" into one which is "you do, but you're doing it wrong".
Stewboy
25-02-13, 10:19 PM
And again im happy to say that in my eyes no indicator, no brain (from Nico_babe) using hubbie's laptop heeheheh
Im sorry but no matter what the Highway code says if you dont use your indicators in my eyes your a TWAT!
What about fellow road users who simply indicate and go without any observation
Ahh..now that's another question altogether, you're moving the context away from "do you" or " don't you" into one which is "you do, but you're doing it wrong".
No not really.
Of course it's daft and potentially dangerous not to indicate if necessary, but, the point I am making is that it isn't always necessary to indicate.
Sometimes people who indicate without giving any thought to what they are doing and why (ie in particular checking what's behind/around them first) and just indicate and move are as bad as people who dont ever use indicators.
redken1
26-02-13, 08:22 AM
Im sorry but no matter what the Highway code says if you dont use your indicators in my eyes your a TWAT!
What about fellow road users who simply indicate and go without any observation
Ahh..now that's another question altogether, you're moving the context away from "do you" or " don't you" into one which is "you do, but you're doing it wrong".
No not really.
Of course it's daft and potentially dangerous not to indicate if necessary, but, the point I am making is that it isn't always necessary to indicate.
Sometimes people who indicate without giving any thought to what they are doing and why (ie in particular checking what's behind/around them first) and just indicate and move are as bad as people who dont ever use indicators.
I think you are making an extremely valid point Nicky. When we use our indicators, we are merely alerting all other roads users and pedestrians within reasonable proximity to our vehicle, of our statement of intention. After indicating, whatever the manoeuvre, the driver/rider must then ensure it is safe to execute it before proceeding.
I always indicate prior to overtaking cyclists because I like to give them a wide berth allowing for any wobbles etc (especially on windy days). Additionally, it alerts (hopefully) other road users following behind me that a slower moving vehicle/cyclist/pedestrian is up ahead.
Im sorry but no matter what the Highway code says if you dont use your indicators in my eyes your a TWAT!
What about fellow road users who simply indicate and go without any observation
Ahh..now that's another question altogether, you're moving the context away from "do you" or " don't you" into one which is "you do, but you're doing it wrong".
No not really.
Of course it's daft and potentially dangerous not to indicate if necessary, but, the point I am making is that it isn't always necessary to indicate.
Sometimes people who indicate without giving any thought to what they are doing and why (ie in particular checking what's behind/around them first) and just indicate and move are as bad as people who dont ever use indicators.
I think you are making an extremely valid point Nicky. When we use our indicators, we are merely alerting all other roads users and pedestrians within reasonable proximity to our vehicle, of our statement of intention. After indicating, whatever the manoeuvre, the driver/rider must then ensure it is safe to execute it before proceeding.
I always indicate prior to overtaking cyclists because I like to give them a wide berth allowing for any wobbles etc (especially on windy days). Additionally, it alerts (hopefully) other road users following behind me that a slower moving vehicle/cyclist/pedestrian is up ahead.
Thank you.
I also agree with you about our overcrowded roads - we're all like too many rats fighting in a small cage and it's getting worse. :'(
If the roads weren't half as busy it probably wouldn't even matter if people rarely indicated, and it certainly wouldn't get people so irate.
wiltshire builders
26-02-13, 12:22 PM
Of course it's daft and potentially dangerous not to indicate if necessary, but, the point I am making is that it isn't always necessary to indicate.
Sometimes people who indicate without giving any thought to what they are doing and why (ie in particular checking what's behind/around them first) and just indicate and move are as bad as people who dont ever use indicators.
I disagree. To assume that you're aware of every potential hazzard on the road is pure arrogance. That is the same attitude that the one flash wonders have as they shoot from lane to lane not giving a **** about the other road users.
It might not ALWAYS be necessary but it's the law and to take it upon yourself to decide when the law applies to you is very bad form.
I've had one crash and didn't hit my head. Does that mean I don't always need my helmet?
How about looking at it this way. Of course, there can be no argument that indicators should be used when necessary. Of course there can be no argument about the fact that they should be used properly and appropriately etc etc. The debate that seems to be running as an undercurrent through this thread is whether they need to be used if they're not necessary. My own view is similar to WB's in that as we're all human we can make errors. That can include errors with our observation of what's around us, so to be in the habit of indicating regardless of whether its necessary or not I see as a positive thing and a good habit to be in. This would be the correct and appropriate use of an indicator - I'm not talking about what happens when people don't turn them off or don't look before indicating etc.
Look at this way - what harm does it do to anybody if you indicate unnecessarily? Who's it going to hurt? Conversely, what harm does it do if you don't indicate and missed seeing the biker who's sat in your blind side and is commited to an overtake?
redken1
26-02-13, 02:19 PM
To be honest I'm completeley lost now on this thread :-[ :-[ :-[
I reckon I'll keep my :-X :-X :-X as I might be agreeing with comments I don't agree with. :D :P ;D
The problem is that most people don't take pride in their driving, they just don't care. You only need to look at the state of their cars to see that.
Of course it's daft and potentially dangerous not to indicate if necessary, but, the point I am making is that it isn't always necessary to indicate.
Sometimes people who indicate without giving any thought to what they are doing and why (ie in particular checking what's behind/around them first) and just indicate and move are as bad as people who dont ever use indicators.
I disagree. To assume that you're aware of every potential hazzard on the road is pure arrogance. That is the same attitude that the one flash wonders have as they shoot from lane to lane not giving a **** about the other road users.
It might not ALWAYS be necessary but it's the law and to take it upon yourself to decide when the law applies to you is very bad form.
I've had one crash and didn't hit my head. Does that mean I don't always need my helmet?
With respect I don't think you'll find any legislation that says regardless of the circumstances and situation you are in you must indicate? But always happy to be proven wrong.
Without sounding sarcastic and it truly isnt meant that way but you'll find when/if you do any advanced riding you will be taught that using an indicator is to give information its how the Police and advanced riders ride - if it wont benefit anyone you don't do it. What that means is that you do actually really think about what you are doing and when and if you need to use an indicator.
Scenario - you are on a long, straight, clear road approaching a tractor that's the only traffic on the road and you are going to overtake it on your bike. Are you saying you will indicate to overtake that tractor? If yes why?
The reference to your helmet isnt relevant at all your helmet isnt used to give information to other road users as an indicator should.
How about looking at it this way. Of course, there can be no argument that indicators should be used when necessary. Of course there can be no argument about the fact that they should be used properly and appropriately etc etc. The debate that seems to be running as an undercurrent through this thread is whether they need to be used if they're not necessary. My own view is similar to WB's in that as we're all human we can make errors. That can include errors with our observation of what's around us, so to be in the habit of indicating regardless of whether its necessary or not I see as a positive thing and a good habit to be in. This would be the correct and appropriate use of an indicator - I'm not talking about what happens when people don't turn them off or don't look before indicating etc.
Look at this way - what harm does it do to anybody if you indicate unnecessarily? Who's it going to hurt? Conversely, what harm does it do if you don't indicate and missed seeing the biker who's sat in your blind side and is commited to an overtake?
I do take your point actually and it was something I did struggle a bit with when doing my advanced bike training recently.
In reality when you are riding 'by the book' it does assume you are giving 100% concentration and have perfect observation. Hard in the real world.
Look at this way - what harm does it do to anybody if you indicate unnecessarily?
I agree. The point I was trying to make is that the danger comes when people just indicate and move. Indicating on auto without thinking about what they are doing and it was just for that reason that I had a crash a few years ago.
Scenario - you are on a long, straight, clear road approaching a tractor that's the only traffic on the road and you are going to overtake it on your bike. Are you saying you will indicate to overtake that tractor? If yes why?
In that instance I would indicate so the tractor driver would know I'm about to overtake him. That's giving information to another road user that my actions are going to affect one way or another. Then he may (or may not) think twice about turning right into his farmyard without indicating.
The point I was trying to make is that the danger comes when people just indicate and move. Indicating on auto without thinking about what they are doing and it was just for that reason that I had a crash a few years ago.
Completely agree with that :)
wiltshire builders
26-02-13, 08:21 PM
Scenario - you are on a long, straight, clear road approaching a tractor that's the only traffic on the road and you are going to overtake it on your bike. Are you saying you will indicate to overtake that tractor? If yes why?
Yes I would as here's why.
Farm vehicles are always covered in crap and their lights are rarely visable. The farmer wants to turn into a field, pull over to the right or do a u-turn. He checks his mirror, sees you, puts on his muck covered indicator and turns.
The first thing you know about his intention is as he swerves into your path. The first thing he knows about your intention is as your lifeless body is bouncing off of his tractor.
Couldn't hurt to indicate really could it?
Scenario - you are on a long, straight, clear road approaching a tractor that's the only traffic on the road and you are going to overtake it on your bike. Are you saying you will indicate to overtake that tractor? If yes why?
Yes I would as here's why.
Farm vehicles are always covered in crap and their lights are rarely visable. The farmer wants to turn into a field, pull over to the right or do a u-turn. He checks his mirror, sees you, puts on his muck covered indicator and turns.
The first thing you know about his intention is as he swerves into your path. The first thing he knows about your intention is as your lifeless body is bouncing off of his tractor.
Couldn't hurt to indicate really could it?
With the added details you've given no, and as the law doesn't require you to use an indicator in all circumstances you've clearly assessed the information and made a valid decision to indicate based on your observation.
I would have too with the additional information you've added. I was thinking of a more affluent arable farmer in the South of the county on a very straight road with no side turnings whatsoever and with my scenario I wouldn't have indicated because it wouldn't have benefited anyone ;) :)
Still quite surprised you are adamant that the law requires indicators are always used which is at complete odds to the Police riders handbook. :o
My take on that is that the Highway Code states you must use your indicators to inform other road users of your intended actions. It doesn't state that you have to use your indicators in all situations but equally it doesn't state you shouldn't use them if you can't see any reason to do so. They would never make that kind of statement because it opens up a whole load of if's, but's and maybe's because everyone's observation skills are different and in my view, subjective.
...... It doesn't state that you have to use your indicators in all situations but equally it doesn't state you shouldn't use them if you can't see any reason to do so. They would never make that kind of statement because it opens up a whole load of if's, but's and maybe's because everyone's observation skills are different and in my view, subjective.
Yes you are probably right.
I'm no legal expert and very happy to be proven wrong but I really dont think IAM, RoSPA and the Police have it wrong.
...... It doesn't state that you have to use your indicators in all situations but equally it doesn't state you shouldn't use them if you can't see any reason to do so. They would never make that kind of statement because it opens up a whole load of if's, but's and maybe's because everyone's observation skills are different and in my view, subjective.
Yes you are probably right.
I'm no legal expert and very happy to be proven wrong but I really dont think IAM, RoSPA and the Police have it wrong.
If the law stated that you don't have to indicate it would set a legal precedent for every person who uttered the immortal words "Sorry Mate I Didn't See You".
I don't see that as being at odds with IAM/ROSPA etc. However, if they teach that you don't have to indicate if you're overtaking a tractor, then I'm for one at odds with their teachings. Just my opinion mind.
wiltshire builders
26-02-13, 11:43 PM
Scenario - you are on a long, straight, clear road approaching a tractor that's the only traffic on the road and you are going to overtake it on your bike. Are you saying you will indicate to overtake that tractor? If yes why?
Yes I would as here's why.
Farm vehicles are always covered in crap and their lights are rarely visable. The farmer wants to turn into a field, pull over to the right or do a u-turn. He checks his mirror, sees you, puts on his muck covered indicator and turns.
The first thing you know about his intention is as he swerves into your path. The first thing he knows about your intention is as your lifeless body is bouncing off of his tractor.
Couldn't hurt to indicate really could it?
With the added details you've given no, and as the law doesn't require you to use an indicator in all circumstances you've clearly assessed the information and made a valid decision to indicate based on your observation.
I would have too with the additional information you've added. I was thinking of a more affluent arable farmer in the South of the county on a very straight road with no side turnings whatsoever and with my scenario I wouldn't have indicated because it wouldn't have benefited anyone ;) :)
Still quite surprised you are adamant that the law requires indicators are always used which is at complete odds to the Police riders handbook. :o
The "added" information is what advanced riding is all about. I'm not sure where you did yours but I would assume that any of the above factors were a possibility and therefore anything I could do to reduce the chance of an accident would be beneficial. Why would you assume that a tractor wouldn't pull over to the side of the road?
If you gave the same scenario to any police rider they would agree. It's your duty to let other road users know what your intentions are. The tractor is another road user and potential hazard.
The legalities count for nothing if you've got to spend the rest of your life in a wheelchair.
...... It doesn't state that you have to use your indicators in all situations but equally it doesn't state you shouldn't use them if you can't see any reason to do so. They would never make that kind of statement because it opens up a whole load of if's, but's and maybe's because everyone's observation skills are different and in my view, subjective.
Yes you are probably right.
I'm no legal expert and very happy to be proven wrong but I really dont think IAM, RoSPA and the Police have it wrong.
If the law stated that you don't have to indicate it would set a legal precedent for every person who uttered the immortal words "Sorry Mate I Didn't See You".
I don't see that as being at odds with IAM/ROSPA etc. However, if they teach that you don't have to indicate if you're overtaking a tractor, then I'm for one at odds with their teachings. Just my opinion mind.
No, IAM and RoSPA don’t teach you that you don’t have to indicate if you’re overtaking a tractor.
What I was trying to do is to give a scenario in which no one benefits from a signal but I realise what I visualised in my head is different to what others are visualising.
If you do any advanced riding which uses the Police system of riding, which in practice is most advance training including IAM and RoSPA, they will use the Police handbook, Motorcycle Roadcraft it tells you that you only give a signal when pedestrians or other road users will benefit. It then continues to explain the merits and reasons for doing this, the first being that it encourages you to be aware of what is happening around you especially behind.
Scenario - you are on a long, straight, clear road approaching a tractor that's the only traffic on the road and you are going to overtake it on your bike. Are you saying you will indicate to overtake that tractor? If yes why?
Yes I would as here's why.
Farm vehicles are always covered in crap and their lights are rarely visable. The farmer wants to turn into a field, pull over to the right or do a u-turn. He checks his mirror, sees you, puts on his muck covered indicator and turns.
The first thing you know about his intention is as he swerves into your path. The first thing he knows about your intention is as your lifeless body is bouncing off of his tractor.
Couldn't hurt to indicate really could it?
With the added details you've given no, and as the law doesn't require you to use an indicator in all circumstances you've clearly assessed the information and made a valid decision to indicate based on your observation.
I would have too with the additional information you've added. I was thinking of a more affluent arable farmer in the South of the county on a very straight road with no side turnings whatsoever and with my scenario I wouldn't have indicated because it wouldn't have benefited anyone ;) :)
Still quite surprised you are adamant that the law requires indicators are always used which is at complete odds to the Police riders handbook. :o
The "added" information is what advanced riding is all about. I'm not sure where you did yours but I would assume that any of the above factors were a possibility and therefore anything I could do to reduce the chance of an accident would be beneficial. Why would you assume that a tractor wouldn't pull over to the side of the road?
If you gave the same scenario to any police rider they would agree. It's your duty to let other road users know what your intentions are. The tractor is another road user and potential hazard.
The legalities count for nothing if you've got to spend the rest of your life in a wheelchair.
You are very clearly building up a scenario which is different to that which I envisaged.
How about this –
You are on a motorway on your bike, the motorway is completely empty apart from one car which is in front of you – that one car is travelling at about 50mph in lane one. There are no slips roads or exits etc for miles. Its daylight, weather and road conditions are excellent. You are approaching the car and want to overtake. Do you indicate?
I guess you’ll say yes as -
1. you’ve already told me it’s the law (although you still havent told me what that law is)
2. you’ve told me to take it upon yourself to decide when the law applies to you is very bad form and
3. you’ve said you ALWAYS indicate.
I have no idea if you’ve done any form of advanced riding but if you have you’ll know that most of it is based on the Police system which is set out in Motorcycle Roadcraft – The Police Riders handbook to better motorcycling. The Police system advises that you should only give a signal when pedestrians or other road users would benefit.
I’m no expert, maybe you are a much better rider than me, maybe not, but personally I think the Police are pretty good riders, and cant help thinking it’s more than a wee bit arrogant to disregard the tried and tested system the Police use, which in turn is used by IAM and RoSPA but maybe you think they are all wrong?
[quote author=Nicky You are on a motorway on your bike, the motorway is completely empty apart from one car which is in front of you – that one car is travelling at about 50mph in lane one. There are no slips roads or exits etc for miles. Its daylight, weather and road conditions are excellent. You are approaching the car and want to overtake. Do you indicate?[/quote]
I'll let WB answer for himself, but in the scenario you have described, here's a possible and in my view reasonable answer as to why you should indicate.
Firstly, there is another road user that would benefit from your signal.
Secondly, and to give my reasoning for the first, is that you cannot see exactly the same as the driver infront of you. You're in the lane behind so a big junk of road is invisible to you as its infront of his car. In his lane he quickly comes across a large hazard in the middle of his lane, lets say a deer which happens frequently certainly in my neck of the woods. He's going to move one way or another to avoid it. My guess is that he would automatically move from lane 1 to lane 2 which is the one you're going to move into without indicating. If he looks in his mirror before making what is normally a fairly sudden manoeuver and see's your indicator flashing, then he or she can make an informed decision over what they are going to do in order to avoid a collision with the deer carcass or you.
I tend to look at these things from a different perspective. If there's a driver infront of you who's signalling or lack of, is going to affect you, then the reverse also applies, and your own signalling must be of benefit to them if only for information purposes. So in the above scenario, if you see the car infront indicate to move out from lane 1 to lane 2 to avoid a hazard, then that is information of benefit to you. To my way of thinking, the reverse then applies so an indication from me is going to benefit the car infront.
I don't want to get dragged into this whole IAM/ROSPA debate again. I have not done it so cannot comment. I'm sure the training is of great benefit to many and I have the utmost personal regard for police motorcyclists. But I think its possible to get caught into thinking its all very black and white which I don't think it is. The roads are ever changing in traffic, conditions, other users and all manner of things that happen every time we go out on our bikes. Observation is key to all this and training helps many in this aspect, but I think it should be tempered with common sense and experience as you're continually risk assessing as you ride. You have to make these decisions all the time and getting stuck in always doing things the same way, in my view, limits that risk assessing.
Also, just wanted to add that I had it drummed into me as a lad when I first started riding and driving many moons ago to "Mirror (Lifesaver), Signal, Manouever". Is that not taught anymore?
Hi Snowy
Absolutely understand what you are saying.
I truly don't profess to be an expert yes I've done advanced training and I am an advanced rider but still have lots to learn and to continue learning.
I actually think the Police riders are some of the best you'll see and fact is they use a system which advises that you only give a signal when pedestrians or road users would benefit.
The system is pretty well tried and tested so I really do struggle to accept the Police, and any (probably most) advanced training organisations who use the police system are wrong.
When you do advanced riding you do more than the old ''Mirror Signal Manoeuvre'' you use a system of hazard perception.
redken1
27-02-13, 10:20 AM
Allow me to throw this in to the mix, based on Nicky’s described scenario of an empty motorway, apart from the one vehicle up ahead in lane one. You look in your mirrors and all lanes behind you are clear so you decide to move in to lane two early. You execute the manoeuvre at 70mph allowing more than enough stopping distance between you and the vehicle ahead, should the driver suddenly cross over in to lane two without giving you any prior notice (indicating). Why would you begin to overtake any later when the road up ahead and behind is completely clear and therefore, I can’t really see who would benefit from indication in such a situation. On the other hand, if you feel the need to indicate I can’t see that it matters.
Snowy in my scenario just to add if the driver sees a hazard you havent and swerves in an emergency do you really think he/she is going to check his mirror first and assuming they do, do you really think having your indicator on is going to make any difference? I dont.
I dont want to get too hung up on a specific scenario but I do agree with the Police system and I do think there are times when giving a signal is of no benefit so dont do it. Rare yes but it does happen.
Allow me to throw this in to the mix, based on Nicky’s described scenario of an empty motorway, apart from the one vehicle up ahead in lane one. You look in your mirrors and all lanes behind you are clear so you decide to move in to lane two early. You execute the manoeuvre at 70mph allowing more than enough stopping distance between you and the vehicle ahead, should the driver suddenly cross over in to lane two without giving you any prior notice (indicating). Why would you begin to overtake any later when the road up ahead and behind is completely clear and therefore, I can’t really see who would benefit from indication in such a situation. On the other hand, if you feel the need to indicate I can’t see that it matters.
In this scenario I'd be out in lane 2 nice and early to maximise my view.
It's not a problem to indicate; the problem is if you do it without thinking about it, and I suspect a heck of a lot of people do just stick an indicator on automatically with little regard to what they are doing it for and why.
If you are always considering if a signal is of benefit to other road users it's encouraging you to be alert and aware of what's all around you and that's got to be good :) That's why the Police teach and use this system.
Snowy in my scenario just to add if the driver sees a hazard you havent and swerves in an emergency do you really think he/she is going to check his mirror first and assuming they do, do you really think having your indicator on is going to make any difference? I dont.
I dont want to get too hung up on a specific scenario but I do agree with the Police system and I do think there are times when giving a signal is of no benefit so dont do it. Rare yes but it does happen.
Nicky, we're actually not far in agreement here, our difference seems to be a very subjective one which is deciding when a signal is of benefit or not. If I could be absolutely 100% sure that an indication is not necessary in any shape or form then I won't indicate. My problem with understanding your logic is that if there's any another road user anywhere near me, I tend to think that there may be something I might not be able to see or have missed in my observation or that might happen unexpectedly. I'm not in control of the car infront, I don't know what sort of a day the drivers having, I don't know if he's suffering with a cold or whether he's had an argument with his wife and therefore not concentrating. I think an indication may or may not be useful to the driver infront, but I don't believe in 100% guarantees in this regard. Indicating is just one of the tools available to you that reduces your risk on the roads and since it cannot be anything else other than a positive thing to do, I will take the option of indicating whether the driver infront decides to react to it or not. If I'm looking in my mirrors I find it useful to me to see if anyone's indicating behind me so why should I think anything different of anyone else?
I would be really interested to see what a police motorcyclist would answer given both of the scenarios you have put forward. Would their answer be based upon purely what they think they can see as you've described it or would they also factor in an extra safety factor to take into account the other things that may be missed? Again, this is based on my belief that 100% observation, whilst being a goal, is not a reality.
I would also like to add that I'm not a saint when it comes to riding my bike and I'm not a riding god either. The above is based as a theoretical answer to what I like to think I should do as an answer to questions raised in this thread. What I actually do on the road is based on gut feel, perhaps 35 years of riding experience and a little bit of luck :)
Snowy in my scenario just to add if the driver sees a hazard you havent and swerves in an emergency do you really think he/she is going to check his mirror first and assuming they do, do you really think having your indicator on is going to make any difference? I dont.
I dont want to get too hung up on a specific scenario but I do agree with the Police system and I do think there are times when giving a signal is of no benefit so dont do it. Rare yes but it does happen.
Nicky, we're actually not far in agreement here, our difference seems to be a very subjective one which is deciding when a signal is of benefit or not. If I could be absolutely 100% sure that an indication is not necessary in any shape or form then I won't indicate. My problem with understanding your logic is that if there's any another road user anywhere near me, I tend to think that there may be something I might not be able to see or have missed in my observation or that might happen unexpectedly. I'm not in control of the car infront, I don't know what sort of a day the drivers having, I don't know if he's suffering with a cold or whether he's had an argument with his wife and therefore not concentrating. I think an indication may or may not be useful to the driver infront, but I don't believe in 100% guarantees in this regard. Indicating is just one of the tools available to you that reduces your risk on the roads and since it cannot be anything else other than a positive thing to do, I will take the option of indicating whether the driver infront decides to react to it or not. If I'm looking in my mirrors I find it useful to me to see if anyone's indicating behind me so why should I think anything different of anyone else?
I would be really interested to see what a police motorcyclist would answer given both of the scenarios you have put forward. Would their answer be based upon purely what they think they can see as you've described it or would they also factor in an extra safety factor to take into account the other things that may be missed? Again, this is based on my belief that 100% observation, whilst being a goal, is not a reality.
I would also like to add that I'm not a saint when it comes to riding my bike and I'm not a riding god either. The above is based as a theoretical answer to what I like to think I should do as an answer to questions raised in this thread. What I actually do on the road is based on gut feel, perhaps 35 years of riding experience and a little bit of luck :)
Hi Snowy
No I dont think we're a million miles apart at all. :)
All I've really be trying to put across here is that as road users we dont have to give a signal, one of which is to use an indicator, and I was just trying to give some scenarios where it is possible that based solely on what I said that an indicator wouldnt benefit anyone, but I quite accept in reality you have many more factors to consider in making that decision. I suspect thats why in the Police handbook they avoid giving any examples.
Again until I'd done any advanced training the idea of not indicating seemed crazy but when you think about it, read and are told why the Police do what they do I understood the reasoning. After 30 odd years of doing it my way Advanced Riding and the Police system was, for me, a bit of an eye opener.
When I went for a ride with a police instructor on a Bikesafe day I was first off, police bike behind me and other punter behind him. After 2 or 3 minutes he put his blues and two's on and waved for me to stop which I have to admit was a bit unnerving (first time nerves). He came over to me and said that I'm not doing an IAM exam, he wants to see how I ride in the real world. So, off we set again and had a great 20 minutes or so of quick (but not illegal) riding and overtakes. At the end of that he said, that was very good, just a couple of points. I didn't indicate left when taking the first exit (which was straight on) at a mini roundabout as the oncoming traffic wants to know where you're going even if they are not going that way. Secondly he wanted me 12 inches further out to the right on left handers. I then had great fun trying to keep up with him as he took the lead to show me how far over he thought I should be.
Take from that whatever you will but in the case of the mini roundabouts, I wasn't indicating because I didn't think my actions were going to affect anyone else and he disagreed. Just goes to show its not all black & white I suppose :)
Everyone should have a go at the Bikesafe rideouts - a bit unnerving for a while but really good fun.
When I went for a ride with a police instructor on a Bikesafe day I was first off, police bike behind me and other punter behind him. After 2 or 3 minutes he put his blues and two's on and waved for me to stop which I have to admit was a bit unnerving (first time nerves). He came over to me and said that I'm not doing an IAM exam, he wants to see how I ride in the real world. So, off we set again and had a great 20 minutes or so of quick (but not illegal) riding and overtakes. At the end of that he said, that was very good, just a couple of points. I didn't indicate left when taking the first exit (which was straight on) at a mini roundabout as the oncoming traffic wants to know where you're going even if they are not going that way. Secondly he wanted me 12 inches further out to the right on left handers. I then had great fun trying to keep up with him as he took the lead to show me how far over he thought I should be.
Take from that whatever you will but in the case of the mini roundabouts, I wasn't indicating because I didn't think my actions were going to affect anyone else and he disagreed. Just goes to show its not all black & white I suppose :)
Everyone should have a go at the Bikesafe rideouts - a bit unnerving for a while but really good fun.
He was using the system ie advising you to use your indicator to give information which benefited other road users, the oncoming traffic, but it isnt always black and white as you say.
The main reason for moving out in the road as he suggested is so that you can see more. Its amazing how much more you can see by changing where you are in the road. Thinking back that was another thing I found quite odd to start with.
They tend to ask you to ride as you would normally so that they can actually offer to help you. Its a bit pointless if you try and ride how you think you should ride, or as if you are on a traditional bike test. Its the same when/if you go onto advanced riding you don't really gain much if you ride completely differently then.
I started off doing a BikeSafe and yep agree entirely its great fun :). I dont know why but of all the things that bother me having a Police motorcyclist behind me didnt/doesnt unnerve me at all especially when training as they are there to help and do tend to speak to you as a fellow biker genuinely wanting to help.
Advanced training is fun too (honest) I honestly thought doing my IAM test with a retired Police examiner behind me was brilliant. He told me at the start to relax, enjoy myself and give him a nice safe progressive ride (progressive means getting a shift on ;) :)) so I did :) Still amazes me how they get those BMW RT's to handle like they do, could put many sports bike riders to shame :o ;D.
If you do advanced riding you'll also find sometimes the person you are with will specifically tell you NOT to treat them as following traffic so that you dont give unnecessary signals that I did find difficult. I think RoSPA tend to do that more than IAM?
When I went for a ride with a police instructor on a Bikesafe day I was first off, police bike behind me and other punter behind him. After 2 or 3 minutes he put his blues and two's on and waved for me to stop which I have to admit was a bit unnerving (first time nerves). He came over to me and said that I'm not doing an IAM exam, he wants to see how I ride in the real world. So, off we set again and had a great 20 minutes or so of quick (but not illegal) riding and overtakes. At the end of that he said, that was very good, just a couple of points. I didn't indicate left when taking the first exit (which was straight on) at a mini roundabout as the oncoming traffic wants to know where you're going even if they are not going that way. Secondly he wanted me 12 inches further out to the right on left handers. I then had great fun trying to keep up with him as he took the lead to show me how far over he thought I should be.
Take from that whatever you will but in the case of the mini roundabouts, I wasn't indicating because I didn't think my actions were going to affect anyone else and he disagreed. Just goes to show its not all black & white I suppose :)
Everyone should have a go at the Bikesafe rideouts - a bit unnerving for a while but really good fun.
He was using the system ie advising you to use your indicator to give information which benefited other road users, the oncoming traffic, but it isnt always black and white as you say.
The main reason for moving out in the road as he suggested is so that you can see more. Its amazing how much more you can see by changing where you are in the road. Thinking back that was another thing I found quite odd to start with.
They tend to ask you to ride as you would normally so that they can actually offer to help you. Its a bit pointless if you try and ride how you think you should ride, or as if you are on a traditional bike test. Its the same when/if you go onto advanced riding you don't really gain much if you ride completely differently then.
I started off doing a BikeSafe and yep agree entirely its great fun :). I dont know why but of all the things that bother me having a Police motorcyclist behind me didnt/doesnt unnerve me at all especially when training as they are there to help and do tend to speak to you as a fellow biker genuinely wanting to help.
Advanced training is fun too (honest) I honestly thought doing my IAM test with a retired Police examiner behind me was brilliant. He told me at the start to relax, enjoy myself and give him a nice safe progressive ride (progressive means getting a shift on ;) :)) so I did :) Still amazes me how they get those BMW RT's to handle like they do, could put many sports bike riders to shame :o ;D.
If you do advanced riding you'll also find sometimes the person you are with will specifically tell you NOT to treat them as following traffic so that you dont give unnecessary signals that I did find difficult. I think RoSPA tend to do that more than IAM?
He wanted me on the white line rather than just inside it which is where I would normally be. I have in this case not taken his advice when my panniers are fitted to the GS as they are wider than his on the RT. Just can't bring myself to have the panniers on the other side of the road with oncoming traffic - I don't have the balls for that ;D
Can you keep the bit quiet about the Boxer twins a la RT, GS etc as being good handling bikes.....its nice to use as a surprise sometimes :) ;D
Nico_babe
27-02-13, 02:13 PM
Hi everyone,
I just wanted to make myself clear when i started this thread that i said i get pissed off with drivers who:
Drift from lane to lane
Dont indicate
Now before you draw up a scenario in your head, I live in North Swindon and work in Reading. So i travel 42 miles each way to work which consists of A419 and M4. I travel peak traffice times both ways. THIS is when im seeing lack of indication. So NO highway agency or law is going to excuse that!
;) ;) ;) ;)
[/quote]
He wanted me on the white line rather than just inside it which is where I would normally be. I have in this case not taken his advice when my panniers are fitted to the GS as they are wider than his on the RT. Just can't bring myself to have the panniers on the other side of the road with oncoming traffic - I don't have the balls for that ;D
[/quote]
I wouldnt either....if I had any ;D ;D
[/quote]
Can you keep the bit quiet about the Boxer twins a la RT, GS etc as being good handling bikes.....its nice to use as a surprise sometimes :) ;D[/quote]
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
what are indicators?
Dunno, haven't got any on my 1949 AJS ;)
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.