SMIDSY..... why we're not seen.

[Last Train]

Interesting stuff this,

http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cyclists/

[Conehead]

Very interesting. :o :o

[redken1]

Good find Kev.

Does make a lot of sense when you think about it. Perhaps we do place too much demands and expect too much from our senses in the modern world.

Just look at the damage we are doing to our ears subjecting them to excessive noise levels from personal music players. Our ears are not designed to withstand such high decibel noise levels. I can vouch for that.

[Swanny]

Very good thanks :)


Apparently women have better peripheral vision than men. Mens eyes are designed more for hunting and pin point accuracy than womens whose are designed to scan the area for threats to them and the kids.
So in theory women should be less likely to pull out in front of a bike :-/

[Swanny]

Just look at the damage we are doing to our ears subjecting them to excessive noise levels from personal music players. Our ears are not designed to withstand such high decibel noise levels. I can vouch for that.


Pardon??? :-?


;)

[redken1]

Just look at the damage we are doing to our ears subjecting them to excessive noise levels from personal music players. Our ears are not designed to withstand such high decibel noise levels. I can vouch for that.


Pardon??? :-?


;)


That is so funny Swanny I'm rolling about on the floor [smiley=thumbdown.gif]

[Swanny]

Sorry Ken you'll have to speak up ;)

[Jon_W]

Very interesting. Thanks LT.

[redken1]

Sorry Ken you'll have to speak up ;)
:(

How unfortunate, I thought this was going to be a very interesting and educational thread. I’ll leave others to make their own judgements. :-X

[Geordie Stu]

Nice one Kev.
Good article.
No matter what we do as bikers to make ourselves more visable, unless drivers take the time to actually look then SMIDSY shall still happen.

[Snowy]

Excellent article and makes a lot of sense. One reason why I ride with auxillary lights on (making a three points of light approach) under certain ambient lighting conditions. I think this gets picked up under peripheral vision much better than a single headlight does which in turn makes drivers move their heads to concentrate on the moving object just like in the article. Good find Kev.

Ken, I don't think Swanny understands the personal implications of his jokes - I'm sure if he did he wouldn't make them.

[SupeRDel]

Don't matter how many lights you have on your bike or clothes ultimately it comes down to you as the rider to look out for yourself.

Every car at a junction has the potential to pull out - I have regularly taken pre-emptive avoiding action when a car at a junction looks dodgy.

Not one of us here can say we have not had that moment where you have done some kind of manouvre then thought afterwards "Did I look - I can't remember if I did"

[Swanny]

Ken, I don't think Swanny understands the personal implications of his jokes - I'm sure if he did he wouldn't make them.
Well being deaf myself I do understand what what I'm saying.
Sorry if I upset you Ken I was only joking

[Swanny]

When I pull out of a junction if the road is wide enough I stay way out in the centre leaving an escape route for a bike just in case I didn't see it.

[Snowy]

There are many ways you can help to reduce the risks of being hit by other vehicles - visibility is one but as Del points out, our own anticipation and awareness of what's happening around us is another major factor. In my opinion, there's little substitute for experience to help in this regard which if you don't have would be helped by some training on knowing what to look for. There are lots of clues out there but you need to know which ones are relevant.

[Jon_W]

I was tught (possibly by Mark) that if your not sure give 'em a quick blast on the horn. If you get the finger back then you know they've seen you!!!! :D

[goz1960]

Very informative.

[Jacde]

If a vehicle is pulling out from a junction I don't look at the driver anymore, I look at the wheels, if they start moving I know the driver hasn't seen me (and hopefully I'm not too close to the vehicle and can take avoiding action)

I was told that I wouldn't go far wrong if I rode like I was invisible to all road users.

Yesterday on our little bimble round the Wiltshire countryside, we had a car just cut across our path in Pewsey, and in Beanacre a driver on the wrong side of the road with the reactions of a dead sloth, and a driver who decided to finally give right of way at a roundabout in Swindon >:(

It's always refreshing when drivers do see you, like the lovely chap just outside Devizes who waited for 5 bikes to bimble past, when ever someone has noticed me I always acknowledge them.

[redken1]

Swanny, perhaps I overreacted.

I am very thick-skinned and wasn’t upset, it’s just after 20 years of hearing the same old deaf jokes in my working and social environment, I find them a bit tedious. No problem though and I’m 8-) :)

Getting back on topic, I could not agree more with Del and Graeme’s comments.

I ride looking well ahead, allowing time to identify potential hazards in advance of approach and assume that every other road user has not seen me. I have always said that in my view road users of all modes of transport would benefit from spending a short time on two wheels.

Graeme makes the excellent point, “There are lots of clues out there but you need to know which ones are relevant.”

Bus shelters-Will a child step out? All junctions - Will a vehicle pull out into my path? Passing parked vehicles - Have I given a wide enough berth allowing for the driver or rear passenger opening a door without looking? When waiting at a junction - Never assume that a vehicle coming from the right and signalling left will actually turn. Wait and make sure. And so on…….

[SupeRDel]

Tiz a subject with so many variables and to be honest motorcycling is a very dangerous hobby anybody who says it is not is a fool.

In reality for our own safety (and out of respect for our families) we should all give it up tomorrow and the government should ban it tomorrow. Last year the accident rate for killed and seriously injured motorcyclists rose by 6%.

But this is just the same as banning cycling, smoking, alcohol, sport and many other pastimes.
Forget being sensible, life has got to have some excitement or what it the point.

To me EXPERIANCE is a big word to do with riding motorcycles safety. Some may dissagree and will say good training is the key. It does help but most training is aimed at getting you ultimately thru your tests so you can jump on a hyperbike with relative no EXPERIANCE of real experiances of hazards you will come across

Well I started riding 50cc mopeds at 16 in 1974 because it was all the rage back then. We hurtled around like lunatics at 45-50mph.
So my first EXPERIANCE's were falling off was very easy and getting hurt was a possibility. I have scars on my knee's now. My mate broke an ankle in calne. I can still remember him hoping around on one foot with his foot swinging about. Another mate had a cut on his foot (thru rubber wellies) from a off that went gangreen!

Anyway we soon progressed onto 250cc machines at 17. I crashed mine about a month later destroying the top of a helmet.
Swindon hospital had a ward in the 70's that was full of 16,17 year olds who had bike accidents. They would all sit in beds side by side regailing stories of their accidents.
Anyway their were deaths. I lost a good mate at Hilmarton who went under the back wheels of a tipper lorry when he slid off his 250 Yamaha (Richard Iles)

We got our initial EXPERIANCE from the fact that law said we had to ride slowish 50cc bikes and we were also limited insurance costs. I nearly bought a 650 bonnie at 17 but the insurance was a staggering £260 (1976).

There were a few that could jump the EXPERIANCE - I was at college with a kid who was left some money by granny. Back then you could take a test on your 17th birthday in the moring and ride anybike out of a dealer. Well in the afternoon of his 17th birthday the lad a knew was on the road on a brand new Suzuki GS750 after passing his test in the morning. Within a few days he had ace bars fitted to it and was riding around like a god. A GS750 back then was one of the superbikes to have with a top speed of 120mph.
He was sadly killed about 2 months later in a head on collision overshooting a bend on the Sutton Benger road.

Who knows - would more EXPERIANCE on a small bike saved his life. A few overshoots of a bend on a 125cc bike at 50mph might have given him some valued EXPERIANCE than the 100mph overshot that he only did once and claimed his life. The variable in this case was the oncoming vehicle though. 9 times out of 10 the road would have been clear.

Due to the rocketing national accident figures for motorcycling the government were duty bound to do something. Hence the restricted 30mph mopeds and the 125cc limits for 17 year olds around the 80's

Bugger me I better stop as I am rambling and nobody ever reads long boring topics :-X

[Swanny]

I read that one [smiley=thumbup.gif]

[Snowy]

I think my story is a very common one of those that started riding in the 70's except that I missed out the moped stage. My first bike was a CB250N and within two years had progressed through a CB550, Z650 to a CB900F which I bought in 1980 and that was a 140mph capable bike. Of course by that time I was a riding god just like everyone else ;D :D

In the early years I had a couple of "offs" and many close shaves quite a few of which I can still recollect very vividly even now. Looking back, every single one of these incidents had an element of my own fault as to the cause, some partially and some completely down to my own stupidity and lack of fear. The common denominator was typically excess speed. Also, and completely unknowingly to me at the time, my lack of knowledge and experience played a major part in getting me into each of those situations. The problem is, when you don't know what your missing, you don't realise that you're actually missing anything. We all rode like gods at the time - those of us that were lucky survived but many didn't - I lost a couple of good friends during this period of my biking career.

Of course now you can't just get on a bike and ride it without going through a training process which I think is a good thing and there's further training available to those that want to go that route. A few of the hard lessons that we learnt in the 70's and 80's could have been avoided if the training had been available or had been compulsory at the time. However, you simply cannot train people to know how to react to every single situation they are going to be faced with on the road. There are simply too many variables to be able to do that. What training can do is give you an insight into the sort of things that you don't realise that you don't know and open your mind to look out for things that once upon a time could only be learnt the hard way.

[Gooz]

Youd also be forgiven for failing to mention accidents caused by poorly serviced bikes too, I noticed my front brakes werent feeling as effective they should, typically as we all do lowered the speed and broke sooner, got home and rolled the bike into the garage with the intention of giving then a good going over across the weekend.............. so glad I did, a third of each front pad was missing, there was no way in hell they would work effectively, and the rears are as much use as a chocolate teapot in this weather, then theres the other..... ahh its got a few more miles left in it yet when dealing with tyres, in this weather ............ madness, brakes steering and traction all require a decent footprint on the road enough rambling but do yourselves a favour just check them over, wet weather gremlins get into everything and a morning of maintainence could save your life :)

[Snowy]

Youd also be forgiven for failing to mention accidents caused by poorly serviced bikes too, I noticed my front brakes werent feeling as effective they should, typically as we all do lowered the speed and broke sooner, got home and rolled the bike into the garage with the intention of giving then a good going over across the weekend.............. so glad I did, a third of each front pad was missing, there was no way in hell they would work effectively, and the rears are as much use as a chocolate teapot in this weather, then theres the other..... ahh its got a few more miles left in it yet when dealing with tyres, in this weather ............ madness, brakes steering and traction all require a decent footprint on the road enough rambling but do yourselves a favour just check them over, wet weather gremlins get into everything and a morning of maintainence could save your life :)

Agreed - just goes to show how many variables there actually are that can affect our survival on the road. Whilst risk cannot be eliminated in any walk of life, there are certain risks we as bikers take in order to have the fun we enjoy. With effort, the risks can be made to be acceptable although we all have different ideas of what's acceptable and what isn't.

[Scotty]

It's interesting to see that tack that this thread has recently taken, now focusing on what we as riders can do to keep ourselves alive in the face of hazardous circumstances.

Del is correct, motorcycling is a risky pastime, but life itself is also risky, and everything we do is about managing risk. Most of it in our daily lives is subconscious, learnt through instruction and repetition, even mundane tasks like walking down stairs. Driving, riding or walking to work today for those of us who've done it involved assessing and dealing with risks all the way. The point that Del repeatedly stressed in his excellent post was that of experience, and it's true how much it helps us in all aspects of life, not just biking.

I was fortunate enough to have learnt biking by doing an "apprenticeship" on a 'ped at 16, an L-plated 250 at 17 and on from there, gaining invaluable experience along the way, and those of us that did it that way are still here by virtue of ability, luck, judgement and experience. Teenage mortality was a fact of life in those days, though I was fortunate enough not to have anyone I knew actually perish on a bike, but two of my contemporaries died in separate car accidents within the space of 1/4 of a mile on the same bit of road.

Those of us who've served the biking "apprenticeship" will doubtless be a small minority within the WB ranks, which is a shame really. It is sad not to see loads of 16 year-olds on mopeds any more. Don't misunderstand me, I have nothing whatsoever against people taking up biking after their teens, the more of us there are, the better, but in doing our "bit" to keep ourselves alive, relative newcomers on big bikes really do lack experience, but not necessarily confidence. The latter without the former is a bad combination. For this reason I've never considered Direct Access to be a good idea, for despite the best efforts or Mark Able et al, three of four days being trained in order to pass a test does not teach anyone how to actually ride a bike, and it's too much like a modern day equivalent of the lad that Del described with the GS750 at 17 for my liking.

[Nelly]

I'm of the same belief as Scotty and Snowy that us that grew up riding bikes of different sizes and abilities are here still due to experience. In the 80's (oh gawd i'm old) i had the unpleasant experience of going to 3 bikers funerals in the same year. Like me, they were all young and invincible. As i've got older the signs, the movement around me, even the type of car tends to throw my survival instinct into overdrive somewhat subconsciously.
I've noticed in the past few years that motorists not only don't see us but, a lot of the time, do see us but are willing to risk it in order to make it to their destination 3 seconds earlier.

[Gooz]

Im in total agreement but please do not think that age/experience is always going to be able to help you in moments of other peoples stupidity, you can only react, unfortunatelly in that split second your life is normally no longer in your hands, if your in, then sorry your already in too deep, I buried a good biking freind of mine last year, with years and years of experience, He had an rtc on the straightest bit of road you ever saw, and manage to hit a pedal cyclist, killing them both almost instantly, to this day nobody fully understands the what ifs and wherefores and the only people who understand truly what happened are unfortunately no longer with us, He left behind his family, his band, his freinds and all of his experience. RIP Rob, Rock on dude !

Sometimes we have no control over our destiny. Our bikes are vulnerable but life is more so.

[wiltshire builders]

I had a bit of a fright a few months back.
I approached a round-a-bout in my van, saw the car next to me stop, looked all round, nothing coming so went to pull out and missed the back of a cyclist by inches!
I couldn't believe it. How the hell could I have missed that? He was even wearing a hi-viz vest.

I got my first motorbike when I was 11, I've toured around Europe and ridden the TT circuit.
I used to race in bicycle time trials as a teen and still regularly go mountain biking.
Yet I still missed this cyclist.

The problem was I believed what my eyes were telling me and ignored my senses.
The car next to me stopped. He'd obviously seen what I hadn't and that should've set the alarm bells ringing.

It can happen to any of us.

[Ducatista]

For this reason I've never considered Direct Access to be a good idea

My OH did DAS and went on to get a Rospa gold first time (I've never heard the last of that ;) and become a tutor. He was mature and had plenty of driving epxerience.

I am suprised that some of you don't agree with freedom of choice on this issue especially Scotty who is usually very pro freedom of choice.
If we should be free to ride, race, not wear high-viz etc. then we shouldn't stop suitably competant people from taking a DAS test when they may be sensible, mature and have lots of experience as a road user.

I don't entirely agree that it's all down to experience. It's how you deal with that experience that's important.
If you ignore it then it doesn't matter how much you have.
If you are the sort of person who careful considers, reflects and learns at every opportunity then you can gain the benefit of leaning very quickly.

[Snowy]

For this reason I've never considered Direct Access to be a good idea

My OH did DAS and went on to get a Rospa gold first time (I've never heard the last of that ;) and become a tutor. He was mature and had plenty of driving epxerience.

I am suprised that some of you don't agree with freedom of choice on this issue especially Scotty who is usually very pro freedom of choice.
If we should be free to ride, race, not wear high-viz etc. then we shouldn't stop suitably competant people from taking a DAS test when they may be sensible, mature and have lots of experience as a road user.

I don't entirely agree that it's all down to experience. It's how you deal with that experience that's important.
If you ignore it then it doesn't matter how much you have.
If you are the sort of person who careful considers, reflects and learns at every opportunity then you can gain the benefit of leaning very quickly.

I don't think anyone is saying that experience alone is the be all and end all. Its been a common theme in this thread that there are many different factors that can affect personal risk of which experience is one of them. Its all in the name really "experience" - you have to have experienced something in order to learn from it.

We all know that locking the front wheel under panic braking is a bad thing and usually ends up in a crash. But how many people on here have actually done it? Out of those that have (I include myself here having binned my bike and wrote off a car in the process) have learnt a lesson for life that no amount of theoretical classroom or personal tuition can truly replicate. I would not recommend anyone to do it on purpose - it hurts a lot and there's a good chance that you might not get up from it. But having done it, that experience can be added to the other experiences you gain by putting mileage under your belt.

You never stop learning by experience - none of us will ever get to the stage where we know everything. And yes, we all then have a choice over whether we use that experience to our advantage or not, but I would add that when you have done something that hurt a lot (either physically or financially) we tend not to do it again or at least try not to.

[SupeRDel]

Tiz good this has turned into an interesting debate with different opinions shared by all.

Well done to your other half who passed his DAS and then did the advanced. You say driving experiance - is that riding experiance?
All the training out there is just that - "training" - you cannot give anyone the knowledge of many years of experiance. In fact experiance makes you think "what could happen" when you go to make a manouvre. In that split second you must weigh up the odds of what could happen or not and wether you should take the risk.

Now where we draw the risk line on a sliding scale will be different for all of us. A person with many years of experiance may draw that line at 75% safe (scale of 1 to 100) whereas a rider with little experiance will draw the risk line at 40% safe. Trouble is the rider with no experiance does not know he has drawn that line there.

BANG - CRASH.... :o .. You are on the ground! :'(

Accidents happen that quick, they always happen when you least expect them. You are riding past a wood at 50mph and a deer jumped out and you hit it.

On my sliding scale I had to weigh up the risk of riding down that nice empty road past that wood. I can hurtle down it at a ton because it is nice and empty! Yippee!

Many years ago me and the missus were going to Chippenham past Derry hill when 3 deer shot out of the bushes in front of me. Does that past experiance temper my riding down to 50mph. Some days it does and some it will not

If I wanted very little risk I would have had to temper my riding to 10mph which would be plainly daft and embarressing.. :-[ :-[ :-[
The deer could still have jumped over the hedge and landed on top of me instead.. :D

Back in the 80's a mate of mine was off to work at Honda when a deer jumped out in front of him. He did an emergency stop and though "that was close!"
A split second later another one came over the hedge and landed on top of him breaking his shoulder.

EXPERIANCE point - deer seldomly cross roads alone. If one crosses in front of you then watch out for more.

Sorry but am I rambling again... :-[

[wiltshire builders]

What was this thread about again?

Oh yeah, how our eyes play tricks on us.
Trouble is, it's preaching to the converted. We all know we're vulnerable it's other road users that need to be told too.
The info in the original post was a real....what's the phrase?....Eye opener! And every road user needs to be aware of this.

[SupeRDel]

No No - you miss my point. The original topic started off as a fighter pilot telling why the Smidsy's can happen and then went on to tell you how to protect yourself - NOT expect the driver of the other vehicle to have seen you

Obviously you think everyone on the site is an expert rider but I did a short ride with the WB a few years back and discovered the ride had riders with a lot of experiance mixed with a fair few that lacked experiance having not long been on the road with some of the risks they took clearly on view. The experts were all at the front!

Anyway - trying not to preach - would it be an idea to take a few photos of sections of road and then describe the experiances some of us older riders may have had
on those roads. Newbies may find them informative

[redken1]

“The experts were all at the front!”

Del, how did you observe those riding behind you to enable you to reach this conclusion?
:-/

[Ducatista]

I would not recommend anyone to do it on purpose

wrt - locking up the front brake.
There are some bike days at Castle Coombe (Rider performace days?) that teach you this sort of thing under controlled conditions. Doesn't seem like a bad idea to me with the right conditions (track in this case), protection and tuition.

[Ducatista]

You say driving experiance - is that riding experiance?

No, I meant driving as a car driver for decades. No previous motorbike experience, but has proven he was very capabale of doing it (passed everything first time, no accidents in the last 3 years, no points ever in decades etc.). I'm not saying everyone is as capable, I'm just saying that if you ban something because it's bad for SOME people then you restrict choice for those who are perfectly capable and I'm suprised to see that kind of "nanny state" attitiude from people who are usually very pro choice especially on the subject of the amount of risk we take personally.

If you stop people with no dependents doing DAS then should you stop people with kids going to war? Just saying. We allow people to do lots more risky things than DAS like climbing mountains, diving with sharks, going to war etc.


All the training out there is just that - "training" - you cannot give anyone the knowledge of many years of experiance.

I am not sure I agree, although I don't want to get hung up over words.
I have personally gained loads of "experience" through the advanced "training" I got. I was the sort of rider that used to do a 15 mile commute only on the same roads and would take the car/train if the weather was bad.
I then signed up for an IAM course which gave me a reason that I HAD to go out in bad weather and also took me on all sorts of roads which I'd never been on before including some with moss, grass and mud down them which I never would have dreamed of doing before.
Now I don't know what word you want to use to describe it and I don't really care about that, but by signing up to some "training" I managed to obtain a load of experience in a relatively organised, guided and safe fashion as someone more experienced was planning my "training" needs for me.
One of the reasons I like doing tutoring is that it makes me go out in the wet and cold and keep my skills up and many of us would not decide to go out on cold/wet days otherwise.
So I don't want to argue over semantics, but signing up and agreeing to do some "training" can bring you loads of experience. Now you could do that on your own but how many people would plan/commit to cold/wet days?

[Ducatista]

On a positive note - North Wilts RoADAR (Rospa Advanced driver and riders) are running a session on 9th September on this subject given by one of our bike tutors who happens to be an experienced trainer and psycologist. It will contain video and small group discussions. This group is both a car & bike group so will contain both sides of the discussion.

Location will be Liddington Village hall near J16 M4.

Guests are welcome and there is no pressure to join the group (although names are usually taken in case there is a fire).

[Snowy]

I would not recommend anyone to do it on purpose

wrt - locking up the front brake.
There are some bike days at Castle Coombe (Rider performace days?) that teach you this sort of thing under controlled conditions. Doesn't seem like a bad idea to me with the right conditions (track in this case), protection and tuition.

The context I was using involved crashing into a car.... that's why I suggested you don't try it for real.

Off road skills training days such as with BMW, teach you about locking the front up as well - I keep promising myself a weekend in the mud, just haven't got round to it. This is the area I personally feel weak on i.e bike control on gravel, sand, mud, diesel, grass etc., and I think learning those skills off road would help my road riding. I did similar in the car by spending a day on a skidpan and its helped my car control when its icy enormously.

[Ducatista]

The context I was using involved crashing into a car.... that's why I suggested you don't try it for real.

Totally agree, about not trying these things out on the road.
Just thought I'd mention that proper instruction is available in a safe environment because it would never occur to me to try that kind of thing at all but it does have some benefits.

[SupeRDel]

“The experts were all at the front!”

Del, how did you observe those riding behind you to enable you to reach this conclusion?
:-/

Because I started at the front and let everyone past. Experts generally like to impress others

[StreetHippo]

Having been a Qualified Flying Instructor for 3 years at the Basic Fast Jet school we had to teach the young pilots coming through how to look out, as the original article said. It is amazing that no such tuition is given to new drivers.
Experience, whether derived on 2 or 4 wheels, can help, but is not the be all and end all. After all, you need to ride to become a better rider! Tuition in any form is always good, and learning skills in a different environment (off road/track) can translate to your control on road.
The thrust of the article is that whilst a driver may "look" they might not "see", and thus we need to protect ourselves and give us the best chance to be seen!

Stu 8-)