Can you get obsessed with too much training?

[QB1]

Was chatting with my OH about advanced training and he's convinced it's possible to get obsessed with bike training so much so that it detracts from the original reason you ride a bike.

Still havent persuaded him to do any advanced training though. ::)

I've done Bike Safe and IAM myself and am thinking of doing some more but started to wonder if he has a point even though I do feel I have gained a huge amount from it.

I'm convinced regular updates are a good thing as skills do go off, but when does it become too much/time to stop?

[Wes]

Dont think so personally, but it depends what you are looking to get from your biking, if that blows your hair back so to speak, then fine, some enjoy trackdays or touring, its all part of the bigger picture :)

[Swanny]

You might become too safe :-/

[Nelly]

Always a good thing to get an objective outsiders look at your riding. Makes you realise what bad habits are creeping into your riding. Even champs have have coaches. ;)

[BB]

As long as you are not training just for the sake of it do what you enjoy. If it floats your boat go with it. Your time, your choice enjoy 8-)

BB

[Ducatista]

he's convinced it's possible to get obsessed with bike training so much so that it detracts from the original reason you ride a bike.

Personally I don't agree with him.

He seems to be saying that training and enjoyment are seperate and to me it's the complete opposite.

I'm not sure how you can be too safe.

Well trained riders know when it's safe to go fast, so don't confuse safety with restraint. Advanced groups teach progress but only appropriate progress i.e. when it's safe.

But everyone is free to do as they choose.

Those who are against it often have reasons - sometimes they are scared to do a test or don't want to listen/change or have a prejudice against people who do.

[Jed]

If the training makes you feel safer, more relaxed and makes riding more enjoyable then it's got to be a good thing. When it doesn't then you probably have done enough training and just need to enjoy riding. I am going to do IAM or ROSPA but have yet to decide which.

[Ducatista]

I am going to do IAM or ROSPA but have yet to decide which.

Go along to some events, meet some people and see which suits you better.
Both would welcome you.
Have a look at their websites/newsletters/forums and see which offers events that you would like.
Chcek out their offerings.

[Trev]

I don't really agree but think I understand what your other half means. I've got a very good mate who has always been a biker since we were kids and has used his bikes as everyday transport for almost the last 30 years. He did his IAM test a few years back, achieved a very high mark then did advanced, then on to being an observer and recently completed his national observer badge. He's now looking at the 'masters' and it does seem to have become a bit of an obsesssion.
He persuaded me to do IAM last year (also after 30+ years of riding) and although I found it very enjoyable and learnt quite a bit I've not really caught the bug. Will do advanced in a year or two but need to fit in around my other biking time.
My mate analyses every ride, piece of road and feedback from his bike and sometimes I'm not sure he stands back from the detail. Mind you he loves the whole thing for him obviously an enjoyable obsession

[Snowy]

Its interesting how any mention on "Advanced Training" always ends up in the same debate that seems to happen on this forum at least annually ;D ;)

If you enjoy training then do it.....its only for you and affects no one else. For what its worth I understand what your OH is saying. You can never make biking safe no matter how much you try and improve your own skills and certainly for me, part of the reason for riding bikes is to get a buz. If I worried myself about safety all the time I would lose the whole reason for doing it.

And I disagree with Ducatista in that I don't believe fast and safe riding is the exclusive preserve of IAM riders ;)

[Rally]

This is a debate I had many years ago after I had been riding non stop for over 20 years. My Mum suggested it as she would feel better and even after all these years still worried if she knew I was out on my bike (Like I'm on holiday riding around Europe etc).
Anyway, I took the IAM test after some observed ride outs and passed. The instructor said the ride was so good that he wanted me to become a observer myself and train others. You normally have to wait 6 months to do this, but i did it from that day. At first I wasn't sure. I then thought long and hard and had to admit to myself that whilst prior to the test I thought I rode well and could learn nothing new, I had learnt and improved from it.
I decided to put something back to the hobby that I had had so much pleasure from. I went on to help numerous people pass their IAM Advanced Test.

Just take from it the bits you want too and forget all the bearded old git jokes and you will enjoy and learn from it. I know it has made me a better, safer and faster rider. Pillions often say how smooth it is on my bike and that's down to the riding, not the bike. I wouldn't knock it again.

I would be happy to do it again every so many years, but not every year. There has to be a time when you have done enough. It could easily become an obsession to keep doing it, but if that floats your boat, so be it. I gave up observing some years ago, but often consider going back to doing it again for the challenge. I often do unofficial ride outs and help friends with advice.

[Ducatista]

And I disagree with Ducatista in that I don't believe fast and safe riding is the exclusive preserve of IAM riders

Well being a Rospa member I would never say anything like that ;)

I don't think that's what I said at all, or at least it's certainly not what I meant.

I was trying to point out that safety does not equal slow, because when you can identify hazards well, then you can also identify the lack of them and apply appropriate speed.

I have never meant to imply that you can't be good/skillfull etc. without advanced training, so I'm sorry if I didn't convey my point well.

[Ducatista]

and it does seem to have become a bit of an obsesssion

Trev - I think the reason that it does appear that way is that when some of us learn we realise how much we don't know and how bad we are.

I think it's probably a personality thing, if you are the sort of person who isn't easily satisfied and beats yourself up a lot then you might be the type to become Obsessed.

[Ducatista]

and forget all the bearded old git jokes

I have to admit I used to look at those bearded old gits and I had an age related prejuidice (innate to some degree).
But some of them are Nurburgring guides and are very good riders indeed, so there's a lesson in there.

[Jon_W]

Is your bike, ride it how you wish. If training is your thing then go for it. If a sunday blast is your thing great! If plodding about on a clasic makes you smile the do it. Just enjoy riding.

[QB1]

I don't really agree but think I understand what your other half means. I've got a very good mate who has always been a biker since we were kids and has used his bikes as everyday transport for almost the last 30 years. He did his IAM test a few years back, achieved a very high mark then did advanced, then on to being an observer and recently completed his national observer badge. He's now looking at the 'masters' and it does seem to have become a bit of an obsesssion.
He persuaded me to do IAM last year (also after 30+ years of riding) and although I found it very enjoyable and learnt quite a bit I've not really caught the bug. Will do advanced in a year or two but need to fit in around my other biking time.
My mate analyses every ride, piece of road and feedback from his bike and sometimes I'm not sure he stands back from the detail. Mind you he loves the whole thing for him obviously an enjoyable obsession

Absolutely Trev. :)

Its perhaps difficult for some people to grasp what my husband meant unless you know someone such as your friend.

I must admit I struggled a bit at first to appreciate what he was saying, immediately jumping to defend the many benefits of advanced training, but that’s exactly where he was coming from.

He’s not challenging the merits of advanced training one bit.

What he was saying is that when people get so obsessed with training and spend so much time constantly seeking to ‘improve’ they are no longer riding for the same reason most of us do, or the very reason they did say when they started.

The ride is no longer just a ride on the bike; the basic fundamental enjoyment of riding a bike goes and it just becomes all about constantly striving for the perfect text book ride, never being satisfied that they have achieved perfection, analysing every situation and every aspect of the ride in detail. They no longer just simply enjoy riding a bike.

Of course it’s each to their own, but actually standing back, it may just be one of the things that deters some people from advanced training and joining IAM and RoSPA?

[Ducatista]

They no longer just simply enjoy riding a bike.

Personally I don't agree with this (although I am NOT saying it's not true for everyone).

I'm "obsessive" but I can go along on a rideout/social occassion and just enjoy the riding/scenery without spending every second in deep concentration.

I hope some of the training still "rubs off" as it becomes habit/second nature, but I'm pretty sure I can switch on/off degrees of concentration.
In fact I KNOW I can micro sleep on my bike - and here I'm sure we'd all agree that lack of concentration is a BAD thing.

So I personally don't think that trained riders cannot relax and just enjoy themselves and I'm speaking from real experience.


Of course it’s each to their own, but actually standing back, it may just be one of the things that deters some people from advanced training and joining IAM and RoSPA?

Maybe, but for me it's the complete opposite.
I join the groups to relax and enjoy my riding as well e.g. socials, rides, weekends, foreign trips just as many people do with this club.

So some of us do training and relaxing in the same groups.
We do not watch each other like hawks for mistakes on group rides, it's a social occassion to relax and enjoy the ride.

I can certainly switch off and enjoy myself and the training does become seond nature so much of it happens sub-conciously.
My observation of other obsessives, is that they can switch off the intense concentration they would apply on a test and enjoy themselves too - very much so.

But you could well be right, that pre-conceptions that we are ALWAYS intensely concentrating on best behaviour may be putting people off.

I'm not sure how we can counter incorrect pre-conceptions except to have lots of positive images of people enjoying themselves.

But at the end of the day, if some people want to do it and others don't then you have to accept it.
We are all different and it doesn't float everyone's boat.
Whilst some are evangelical about saving lives others are not interested and we have to accept that.

[wiltshire builders]

Tricky one.
On here the IAM and ROSPA trained riders can come across as being a bit smug and holier than thou and their view shouldn't be questioned.
The trouble is, it is a forum and something is lost in translation when it is written and it can be hard to explain without preaching.

It may seem to us mere mortals than these guys are bike geeks who don't know 'how to enjoy' a ride but in reality they are using their skills without really realising it.
Hazzard awareness becomes second nature so in actual fact they're thinking less about the dangers but doing more to prevent it allowing them to get on with the ride.

Your natural instincts (as a human being) can be your worst enemy on a bike. Learning to over-ride them is key to safe, fast riding.

As long as you don't corner me in the pub talking about it, you're all fine by me! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

[QB1]

Tricky one.
On here the IAM and ROSPA trained riders can come across as being a bit smug and holier than thou and their view shouldn't be questioned.

[smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Fair point...have a sneeky feeling I can fall into that one, without meaning too ;) :-[



The trouble is, it is a forum and something is lost in translation when it is written and it can be hard to explain without preaching.

[smiley=thumbsup.gif]

SO TRUE :)



It may seem to us mere mortals than these guys are bike geeks who don't know 'how to enjoy' a ride but in reality they are using their skills without really realising it.
Hazzard awareness becomes second nature so in actual fact they're thinking less about the dangers but doing more to prevent it allowing them to get on with the ride.

[smiley=thumbsup.gif]

For the majority yes but actually thinking about it I do have to agree with the OH and do think some start to loose some of the basic enjoyment of just riding a bike constantly striving for the perfect text book ride.

[QB1]

They no longer just simply enjoy riding a bike.

Personally I don't agree with this (although I am NOT saying it's not true for everyone).

I'm "obsessive" but I can go along on a rideout/social occassion and just enjoy the riding/scenery without spending every second in deep concentration.

I hope some of the training still "rubs off" as it becomes habit/second nature, but I'm pretty sure I can switch on/off degrees of concentration.
In fact I KNOW I can micro sleep on my bike - and here I'm sure we'd all agree that lack of concentration is a BAD thing.

So I personally don't think that trained riders cannot relax and just enjoy themselves and I'm speaking from real experience.


Of course it’s each to their own, but actually standing back, it may just be one of the things that deters some people from advanced training and joining IAM and RoSPA?

Maybe, but for me it's the complete opposite.
I join the groups to relax and enjoy my riding as well e.g. socials, rides, weekends, foreign trips just as many people do with this club.

So some of us do training and relaxing in the same groups.
We do not watch each other like hawks for mistakes on group rides, it's a social occassion to relax and enjoy the ride.

I can certainly switch off and enjoy myself and the training does become seond nature so much of it happens sub-conciously.
My observation of other obsessives, is that they can switch off the intense concentration they would apply on a test and enjoy themselves too - very much so.

But you could well be right, that pre-conceptions that we are ALWAYS intensely concentrating on best behaviour may be putting people off.

I'm not sure how we can counter incorrect pre-conceptions except to have lots of positive images of people enjoying themselves.

But at the end of the day, if some people want to do it and others don't then you have to accept it.
We are all different and it doesn't float everyone's boat.
Whilst some are evangelical about saving lives others are not interested and we have to accept that.

Thanks Ducatista - very interesting to hear your point of view.

[Snowy]

As per other annual threads on similar subjects, once you get a number of different but still valid points of view, the overall content of the thread takes on a much more subjective tone.

So, Nicky, how will you be presenting this to your OH? ;D ;D Will you let us know?

Maybe some people just want to be left to make their own choices in life without being told,pressured or made to feel uneasy about their own decisions - I know when I was a smoker, everytime my mum told me to quit I got rankled and ended up smoking more. As soon as she quit moaning about it - I quit. Logical no, understandable yes...maybe....well just me perhaps ;D :D

[Ducatista]

On here the IAM and ROSPA trained riders can come across as being a bit smug and holier than thou and their view shouldn't be questioned.

That's a great shame if it comes across that way.

The best riders know they have more to learn.
The official roadcraft view is very flexible and not hard and fast.

I haven't met many smug types in person, but I agree things don't always come across well on forums.

I think anything can be unhealthy if it gets obsessive but having a keen interest in Road safety can't be put in the same bracket as too much drinking/smoking/gambling in my view.

Personally I think the day I think I'm good enough and stop wanting to learn is that day I should give up biking, but that's a personal view and not one I'd corner people in pubs about :)

[Snowy]

[/quote author=Ducatista] The best riders know they have more to learn.
[/quote]

Thats not exclusive to Advanced riders - its a lifeskill and gets more pronounced with age ;)

[QB1]

So, Nicky, how will you be presenting this to your OH?

I'd actually love him to do some advanced training and have no intention of giving up. But having been married to him for far too many years now I know that it takes time to get him to do anything I want him to do regardless of why. He's a stubborn git...but like most women I have my ways and havent failed yet ;) ;D ;D

[QB1]

So, Nicky, how will you be presenting this to your OH?

I'd actually love him to do some advanced training and have no intention of giving up. But having been married to him for far too many years now I know that it takes time to get him to do anything I want him to do regardless of why. He's a stubborn git...but like most women I have my ways and havent failed yet ;) ;D ;D


Sorry to answer your question I wont - he needs no additional 'justification' not to do it and reading this he just might :)

[Ducatista]

Thats not exclusive to Advanced riders

Of course.
I don't think anyone said it was so I'm not sure where this line of thought or impression comes from.
I for one certainly do not believe IAM/ROSPA is the be all and end/all of training.
I would like to do some more trackdays but unfortunately it's going to happen when I fit into my leathers again ;) a timescale that I continually underestimate.

I'm sure some riders like yourself are very naturally talented and work a lot of it out for themselves with experience. I wasn't and needed quite a bit of help which I've obtained through a variety of sources - riding schools, Rapid training, track days and the voluntary sector.

I totally agree with you on the matter of personal choice, but that does include talking about advanced riding now and again (and to be honest once a year is not very much for a subject hundreds of bikers in the area feel life savingly passionate about).


but like most women I have my ways and havent failed yet

:-X :-X :-X :-X
Not much that can't be acheived with a cracking BJ

Damn it - didn't manage the :-X

[Scotty]

Not much that can't be acheived with a cracking BJ

Damn it - didn't manage the :-X
That is a very persuasive weapon in the armoury of the female.... doesn't always work mind you, but it gives pause for thought and can be effective if repeated... ;)

[Snowy]

Thats not exclusive to Advanced riders

Of course.
I don't think anyone said it was so I'm not sure where this line of thought or impression comes from.


I wasn't referring to anything you said specifically, just generalising the point that with age, comes the realisation that the older we get, the less we know. My point is that this covers all walks of life and is a
lifeskill that us oldies pick up with age :)

[QB1]

[QUOTE]but like most women I have my ways and havent failed yet

:-X :-X :-X :-X
Not much that can't be acheived with a cracking BJ



He should be SO lucky ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

But if needs must ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D

[QB1]

Not much that can't be acheived with a cracking BJ

Damn it - didn't manage the :-X
That is a very persuasive weapon in the armoury of the female.... doesn't always work mind you, but it gives pause for thought and can be effective if repeated... ;)

::) ::) ::) ::) :)

[redken1]

Not much that can't be acheived with a cracking BJ

Damn it - didn't manage the :-X
That is a very persuasive weapon in the armoury of the female.... doesn't always work mind you, but it gives pause for thought and can be effective if repeated... ;)

::) ::) ::) ::) :)


Advanced training has never appealed to me before, but if these kinds of activities are taking place I think I’ll give it a go. :o :D ;) ;D

[wiltshire builders]

Not much that can't be acheived with a cracking BJ

Damn it - didn't manage the :-X
That is a very persuasive weapon in the armoury of the female.... doesn't always work mind you, but it gives pause for thought and can be effective if repeated... ;)

::) ::) ::) ::) :)


Advanced training has never appealed to me before, but if these kinds of activities are taking place I think I’ll give it a go. :o :D ;) ;D

I'm a bit worried that it was Scotty that convinced you though Ken!

[Swanny]

Giving a cracking BJ to her boyfriend/husband should be part of every woman's normal routine, not just added in when trying to get her own way :) ;)

[Gooz]

I totally agree with him, as you ride your bike its important to realise that ite you and your own riding style that will bring a smile to your face, whilst being objective is a fine thing if your to listen all the while to others and adopt their techniques and styles then surely you may as well jump on the back and just let them pillion you around, all the training in the world will only be of any use if you actually get out and ride in your own style and flair, Deep down inside Im sure part of you agrees with him too otherwise we wouldnt be having this debate :) get on and enjoy, if there are things you feel you need to learn or improve then of course go seek fulfilment, but true enlightenment comes from within young skywalker x

[QB1]

I totally agree with him, as you ride your bike its important to realise that ite you and your own riding style that will bring a smile to your face, whilst being objective is a fine thing if your to listen all the while to others and adopt their techniques and styles then surely you may as well jump on the back and just let them pillion you around, all the training in the world will only be of any use if you actually get out and ride in your own style and flair, Deep down inside Im sure part of you agrees with him too otherwise we wouldnt be having this debate :) get on and enjoy, if there are things you feel you need to learn or improve then of course go seek fulfilment, but true enlightenment comes from within young skywalker x

I understand where's he's coming from and yes part of me does agree.

I was genuinely interested to see what others thought.

I still very much want him to do some advanced training and am sure I'll persuade him of the merits of doing so. :)

[QB1]

Giving a cracking BJ to her boyfriend/husband should be part of every woman's normal routine, not just added in when trying to get her own way :) ;)


You've told your other half that have you ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Swanny]

You've told your other half that have you ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D




She loves to please ;) 8-)

[redken1]

Its interesting how any mention on "Advanced Training" always ends up in the same debate that seems to happen on this forum at least annually ;D ;)

If you enjoy training then do it.....its only for you and affects no one else. For what its worth I understand what your OH is saying. You can never make biking safe no matter how much you try and improve your own skills and certainly for me, part of the reason for riding bikes is to get a buz. If I worried myself about safety all the time I would lose the whole reason for doing it.

And I disagree with Ducatista in that I don't believe fast and safe riding is the exclusive preserve of IAM riders ;)


Agree with most of your comments here Graeme.

Whilst I accept that it may well (and probably does) improve a biker’s riding skills, all the training in the world is no substitute for hands-on practical experience and that only comes with time in the saddle.

IMO biking is no different from any professional trade, A competent instructor can teach you the proper/correct method to carry out certain tasks within a particular trade, but proficiency can only be achieved through experience, which means practice and more practice.

Motorcycling is a high risk activity as we all know and would I be well off the mark in saying that, that is one of the factors which attracts many of us to it? Of course we should take all necessary steps to lower that risk of which advanced training plays a part.

That said however, if I thought I was becoming over concerned with the risk involved every time I jumped on my bike, I would pack it in. I hope I never reach that point.

[Jon_W]

Well said Ken. There is no substitue for riding! Now get out there... :D

[QB1]

[
IMO biking is no different from any professional trade, A competent instructor can teach you the proper/correct method to carry out certain tasks within a particular trade, but proficiency can only be achieved through experience, which means practice and more practice.



I REALLY dont want to turn this into one of the boring threads on the merits on advanced training but it's interesting that you refer to motorcycling being like a profession.

I am someone who works in a profession. I qualified many years ago and to keep my professional skills and knowledge up to date I have to undertake a minimum of 21 hours of CPD (Continuing Professional Development ie training to keep my skills up to date) every year to maintain my qualification ;)

I think you have a good point :)

[Ducatista]

Motorcycling is a high risk activity as we all know

I have a few hobbies that are inherently dangerous and yes I think it's partly the thrill that does attract us, but I would never undertake any of them without the proper epuipment, training and procedures.

I don't think many of us would dream of going sky diving or Scuba diving without proper backup equipment (spare parachute or spare regulator), proper training and proper procudures e.g. buddy system.

It does seem to me that because motorcycling is a very familiar day-to-day activity that we are complacent about it whereas most of us wouldn't dream of doing any equally (inherently) dangerous activities without the proper safeguards.

As for types of training, my personal (and many riders) bias towards the voluntary sector is mainly cost based. No-one has said it's the only way or the best way, but if you have limited funds (which most of us do) then it's certainly the best bang for your buck.

I would never do anything like scuba diving or sky diving or anything similar without training but I did just jump on a moped and ride on the roads without any training (none required in 1984) and ironically statistically the latter is far more dangerous.
So I do think it's interesting that our risk perception is out of kilter.

I used to be terrified of flying when the risks of death are 1 in 16 million and massively lower than motorcycling, but when I'm in a plane I'm not in control and on a motorbike I feel I'm in control and quite confident.

I think our risk perception is pretty screwed up.
Snakes on a plane - what are the chances?
I'm going diving with Sharks in April which most people would think is dangerous but I'm statistically more likely to be killed by a cow, toaster or champagne cork.

[wiltshire builders]

I'm statistically more likely to be killed by a cow, toaster or champagne cork.
Hey, what you do behind closed doors is upto you! ;D

[Squashed_Fly]

I would never do anything like scuba diving or sky diving or anything similar without training but I did just jump on a moped and ride on the roads without any training (none required in 1984) and ironically statistically the latter is far more dangerous.
So I do think it's interesting that our risk perception is out of kilter.


Is that a fair comparison though? If you actually could go diving with no training, buddy/instructor or experience, I'm sure the accident rates would be mucg higher per 100 participants. It's a lot easier to jump on a moped with none of the above...

Or did you mean the accidents stats are worse for moped riders that have had full training? Also, I would hazard a guess that the age range would play a part there, wonder if that is included in the stats? ie 16 year old mopeders vs 16 year old divers etc?

(sorry, didn't mean to throw a spanner in your argument as I agree with it, just interested to know if the statistics include that fact?)

[Ducatista]

Is that a fair comparison though?

You're absolutely right.
In some cases we have a lot of safety enforced on us e.g. commercial flying.
Whereas in other cases we have a great deal of freedom to take risks.
This is of course reflected in the stats.

I still believe our risk perception can be flawed and that we can get a false sense of confidence/control when we are familliar with an activity.

[YMFB]

In a work environment you wouldn't be allowed to operate anything as dangerous as a moped without training, permit to work, safe system of work and risk assessment. I'm guessing statistically that moped riders don't account for significant proportion of motorised two wheeled ksi's. My guess is older riders on machines > 500 cc

Training in the work environment is usually based on continuos assessment and training, so why not riding/driving ?