We need a revolution

[commando1966]

Blade Triple - Good post - most of which I agree with - maybe not the old folks bit - I'm almost one of them - you think £97 per week is suitable reward by way of pension for 50 years contribution? I think not! And the 'generous' winter fuel allowance as someone in another post said, is £60. I would call that paltry even on top of £97 per week which I spent 50 years paying for, not generous.
But I digress - I DO agree with the most part of your post.
Nick - did you read it?
Everyone else - PLEASE keep moaning! Don't let the right wing press indoctrinate the masses with lies!

Yeah im reading all this .. to be honest this is better than BBC comedies ;D and you think £97 a week is a Paltry ammount to live on ? Do you all have 4 Bed detached homes then? Before my current job i was Unemployed for 14 months and lived on £30 less than that .. STOP WHINGING lol :P

[redken1]

Thank heavens that Emmeline Pankhurst and her ilk were moaners.

Pankhurst was an activist.
That means she did something rather than just moaned.

Perhaps I should clarify my above comments. I was responding to earlier contributors to the debate, who implied that there was too much moaning about issues and no action from members on this thread. I have been an activist for over 30 years, campaigning and demonstrating against the so called poll tax, nuclear weapons, the war in Afghanistan and Iraq, etc. I have no doubt that when the current government's imminent cuts start to bite and hits the working class disproportionately there will be millions of ordinary people ready to take action. I won't have much time to moan because I will be one of them.

[JAYJAY]

Ducatista - thanks for your post I checked out that link and it seems that somehow I'm being done on my £60 payment! Useful link which i am using to challenge it.

Whilst agreeing with the rest of your post - I think it is slightly pedantic (please forgive me for saying so) - So I've spent 50 years paying my predecessors pensions, now it's my turn we can't afford it?

Of course you're right - the system is flawed - but whichever way you want to argue it - the amount of state pension you receive up to the maximum (£97 for a single person) is related to the amount of years you have paid into it.

Our 'flawed' system is why we have one of the worst state pensions in Western Europe and the oldest qualifying age.

All that apart - Thanks for that link [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

[Ducatista]

the amount of state pension you receive up to the maximum (£97 for a single person) is related to the amount of years you have paid into it.

No it isn't. Sorry if you think it's pedantic but I think it's relevant to your initial point.

You usually build up qualifying years if you are:

* in paid full-time or part-time work
* self-employed
* caring for someone for over 20 hours a week
* getting child benefit
* receiving certain benefits
* in full-time training

So you see you initial point is that you thought it's not good value, for what you have paid in, but you also have to subsidise a lot of other people listed above.
This is why you might not be getting as much as you think you are entitled to.

The state pension works as a society. If you were out working whilst other people (perhaps in your direct family) were undertaking child care then as a member of a society then you need to subsidise them.

If you don't like this scheme and you would like your own then the answer is very simple i.e. get your own.
Subject to the rules and taxes, you can have complete control over how it's invested and when you take it.

I am aware that you cannot opt out of the basic state pension, but you can opt ut of SERPS.
As a memebr of a society where you want to have free NHS, free fire service etc. then at times you will be subsidising others.
If you had been in full time child care, then you yourself would get subsidised, that's what being part of a society is all about.

If you don't like the way it works then do something about it, but bear in mind that if you take it away from disabled people or people who have been in full time child care then you will need an alternative (euthanasia? put them out on the streets?)
But as I said earlier it has been obvious for a very long time (at least 20 years) that the state pension would be insufficient for your needs on it's own and that it's necessary to make your own provision for your own retirement.

The most obvious answer, to do something about it, is to make your own provision for your own retirement and not rely on the state.
I appreciate that in your early working career this may not have been obvious or affordable, but I can certainly say it has been for 20 years.

[Ducatista]

Perhaps I should clarify my above comments. I was responding to earlier contributors to the debate, who implied that there was too much moaning about issues and no action from members on this thread. I have been an activist for over 30 years, campaigning and demonstrating against the so called poll tax, nuclear weapons, the war in Afghanistan and Iraq, etc. I have no doubt that when the current government's imminent cuts start to bite and hits the working class disproportionately there will be millions of ordinary people ready to take action. I won't have much time to moan because I will be one of them.

I have no issue with anyone that wants to change things in fact I think that's desireable.
It's moaning and doing nothing that I have an issue with and of course you aren't in that category.

I don't see millions out on the streets.
I don't want to see people in harship but I think many of us as taxpayers accept that we cannot as a nation continue to live beyond our means and that cuts are necessary.
There may be some protests and not all the cuts may be entirely fair, but I don't see the country coming to a standstill.
For example the child benefit where two parents are working is clearly an unfarirness but are people really going to go on strike and go without income over it???
I can't see it myself.

There have already been protests in France, but nothing at all on any majoe scale over here. If people were up in arms then why aren't they out on the streets already?
A lot of us see it as necessary and traditionally the conservatives have always done a better job of sorting out the economy.

[wiltshire builders]

[/quote]
Perhaps I should clarify my above comments. I was responding to earlier contributors to the debate, who implied that there was too much moaning about issues and no action from members on this thread. I have been an activist for over 30 years, campaigning and demonstrating against the so called poll tax, nuclear weapons, the war in Afghanistan and Iraq, etc. I have no doubt that when the current government's imminent cuts start to bite and hits the working class disproportionately there will be millions of ordinary people ready to take action. I won't have much time to moan because I will be one of them.[/quote]

Didn't you start a thread mocking the Tories for hitting the middle classes with their cuts the other week? Surely you should've been pleased that for once it wasn't the working classes that were suffering and maybe changed your views slightly? You seem a bit stuck in your ways and it doesn't matter what any political party does you'll find fault with it. I don't want to pre-judge you and you have made some very valid points but the impression you're giving is edging towards anarchist rather than activist.
I don't like any of our political parties because they are only interested in votes and not the voters. Something needs to be done about the current situation and it's not going to be to everyones liking. The fact is, the country costs X amount to run. Put more money into schools = less money for health care. Invest in health care = less money for policing.......and moats and duck houses.

[JAYJAY]

We're going to have to wait to see how these cuts pan out in reality before we can make any real judgements - there is a lot we still no little about.

However, if the economists who are supposed to be the people in the know are to believed, whilst the cuts WILL unusually hit the middle classes - it will hit those with little or no disposable income (the poor) a lot harder.

As someone who has never voted Conservative in a General election, and never Labour in a local election, as a citizen I still pray that the coalition is successful in solving the problem - Even though I think they've got it wrong. :-?

[redken1]

Wiltshire Builders I enjoyed reading your post and I can reassure you that I am most certainly not an anarchist and condemn anyone who is involved in violence or intimidating behaviour as a means of bringing about change. Of course I was pleased that the Tories are scrapping child benefit for those in the higher income, but its hardly a policy, which will bring about large-scale wealth redistribution. As I am a democratic socialist, surely you would not expect me to support any of the three mainstream parties (including Labour) who are all champions of the capitalist free market economy.

I peacefully protested against the poll tax because it was not income based and there were no safeguard mechanisims in place for those who never had the ability to pay. I continue to campaign to bring our troops home from Afghanistan because it breaks my heart when I switch on my tv and see another young life lost.

I accept that the economy is in bad shape to say the least but the imminent cuts are about choices. Why should ordinary people be expected to pick up the tab for the unscrupulous bankers' mess, who are still drawing huge bonuses.

I am happy to wear the moaner/leftie/activist badge but I am certainly not an anarchist.

[JAYJAY]

Special thanks go to Ducista [smiley=thumbsup.gif] [smiley=thumbsup.gif] [smiley=thumbsup.gif] [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
Thanks to your post / persuasion and the link you posted I have claimed for my winter fuel allowance and you were quite right as it seems I have been awarded £250 - certainly more worth having than the £60 I thought!

I still don't entirely agree with you on pensions but we have spent our adult lives through different eras - a private pension just wasn't available to us poor downtrodden underpaid workers of the '60s. Having manged to elect a couple of socially responsible goverments during the 50's and 60's who managed to end rations, found the NHS, and pay off the war debt in the face of fierce opposition, we had other things to strive for as young people.

My first weeks wages in '65 was £4.10.00 (yes £4.50) AND I paid NI and tax on it! Mind you I could buy a pint for about 8p!!!

[Toph]

I started work at 16 years old at Jack Plowrights Motorcycles in Trowbridge , I worked a 48 hour week and was paid £12.00 ....... no pension scheme though!! ;D