UK Leave EU?

[Snowy]

I think it's a far too complicated a situation for many people to have a true understanding and therefore informed opinion on what would really be the right way to go. And even then there would still be differing views. If it really was that simple we would'nt be in this situation. We vote the government in, we all knew which parties wanted to join and which did'nt so we got what the majority voted for (or more accurately, the party with the biggest individual collection of minority votes). I certainly don't have anywhere near enough knowledge to form an informed opinion. Its easy to pick on just one part of an argument that we perceive as being negative and then come to the conclusion that the whole thing is bad.

The only thing I would prefer us to do is make our minds up which it's going to be. We are either in or out - all this sitting on the fence with one foot in and one foot out is never going to work longterm.

My uninformed opinion is that we should be in Europe and join the Euro. I can't see the the former giant that was Great Britain decades ago being able to survive against a United Europe (not now but will be at some point in the future I'm sure) the USA, China, India and the other rapidly developing countries in Asia. We don't manufacture hardly anything anymore, we are a service economy and I don't think we would survive on our own.

[Crosbie]

We have become a service economy because all our industry, manufacturing, inventions are being shipped to these other developing possible future super powers as the labour is far cheaper thus making materials and the whole process cheaper. The whole world if focused on making a 'fast buck' and lost sight of the bigger picture.

It is because of this 'service economy' that we are now effectivly labeled that I wholey believe if we had joined the euro back in 99 or 2005/6 we would be in a similar situation to Greece. The Germans have clearly never had faith in it but fortunatlry for them their government at the time had a contingency plan and stashed vast amounts of deutsche mark. I would not be supprised if the Germans pull out and revert back to the DM in the first half of 2012.

[Snowy]

You may well be right historically, but the clock cannot be reversed. I just think that if we pull out, the first thing to happen is that Europe will close ranks and really leave us out in the cold. Now, we may all think that's preferable to our current situation, but we would have to face the consequences. I would imagine that pretty quickly, Frankfurt would take over the entire banking sector within Europe (yes, all those nasty bankers), taking away one of our single biggest invisible earnings potential and export markets. Everyone looks after their own, so if you are out of the family, you have to be prepared to live on your own.

[Crosbie]

I agree we would be out on our own with none or next to no help and this could be difficult for 5 years maybe 10 BUT
The next 5 to 10 years are not going to be plain sailing anyway.

But more importantly this country would not have its hands tied by european laws including all the ludicrus human rights, animal rights, health and safety red tape etc, the list is endless.

Money would become available from not having to provide plush new prisions, paying out compensation to every tom dick and harry for apparent infringement of their 'human rights', you can include in this the idiots burglars who are injured by property owners during criminal acts (subject to laws being passed in this country with currently wouldnt stand a chance) Simple cut and dry cases saving the tax payers a fortune in courts bills. Imigrants who are in this country claiming benefits with no intensions to work are either offered a job or told to leave (currently against their 'human rights'). Criminal imigrants are deported without even getting close to a UK prison - again saving the tax payer a fortune but also currently against their 'human rights'.

Farmers would also see subsidies rather than it all going to the French farmers - We could - We would survive! WE ARE BRITISH.

I cant see how not being part of europe would not benefit the UK short or long term.

[Snowy]

I can't really judge either way as I don't know enough about global economics. However I look at this way. I don't believe that in 500 years time there will be an England or a Russia or a United States of America in todays terms or thinking. I believe the only way the world will survive (if it survives) will be to one day become united and work as a whole. Or it dies. This process is purely an economic version of the Darwinian theory of evolution which I personally also prescribe to. Therefore the only unknown factor is timescale. The history books of the 25th century will summarise what we are going through now in one or two paragraphs. I really do think all we are going through now is a change towards a single global economy which will inevitably result in a single State, Federation or whatever you want to call it. Yes, it will be a bumpy road, but overtime the trend is there to see. In my opinion. I might well be wrong ( and I'm not saying I like the idea either) but I won't be alive to know it

[FJ_Biker]

Crosbie I agree with Snowys point of view. Virtually all industry would leave the UK as they would have to pay export tariffs to mainland Europe if we pulled out of the EU. Making them less competitive its simple economics.

The Human rights act is here to protect us minimum working hours, minimum pay ect, it’s just some people take the p!ss, the same way as some people on social security lie to get more money, corporate company’s have office’s of accountants and solicitors to avoid tax.

Money would become available from not having to provide plush new prisions, paying out compensation to every tom dick and harry for apparent infringement of their 'human rights', you can include in this the idiots burglars who are injured by property owners during criminal acts (subject to laws being passed in this country with currently wouldnt stand a chance) Simple cut and dry cases saving the tax payers a fortune in courts bills. Imigrants who are in this country claiming benefits with no intensions to work are either offered a job or told to leave (currently against their 'human rights'). Criminal imigrants are deported without even getting close to a UK prison - again saving the tax payer a fortune but also currently against their 'human rights'.

This all sound to me like Daily Mail newspaper stuff. Having never been to prison in the UK or Europe I cannot really comment on prison life. I don’t know enough about the history of the laws to know if a lot off these issues are hangovers from old laws or legislation that has been modified since the human rights act. It’s not a simple subject and has know quick fix but is good at getting knee-jerk reactions.

Farmers would also see subsidies rather than it all going to the French farmers - We could - We would survive! WE ARE BRITISH

We get a big chunk of money back from the EU for this.

When Thatcher was in charge the Tory party split the majority of this up between the big Land owners and corporate companies. The small person misses out again in the UK

There is a lot of Info on corporate companies and their greed with food subsides world wide that can be found on this blog. It’s a shocking read in places.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/felicitylawrence

My view is we are better off in the UK in Europe than out. We have been spoon fed lots of small tabloid stories about mad legislation (some of it is daft if it is true?) we are too busy believing this and missing the bigger picture.

[redken1]

I think it's a far too complicated a situation for many people to have a true understanding and therefore informed opinion on what would really be the right way to go. And even then there would still be differing views. If it really was that simple we would'nt be in this situation. We vote the government in, we all knew which parties wanted to join and which did'nt so we got what the majority voted for (or more accurately, the party with the biggest individual collection of minority votes). I certainly don't have anywhere near enough knowledge to form an informed opinion. Its easy to pick on just one part of an argument that we perceive as being negative and then come to the conclusion that the whole thing is bad.

The only thing I would prefer us to do is make our minds up which it's going to be. We are either in or out - all this sitting on the fence with one foot in and one foot out is never going to work longterm.

My uninformed opinion is that we should be in Europe and join the Euro. I can't see the the former giant that was Great Britain decades ago being able to survive against a United Europe (not now but will be at some point in the future I'm sure) the USA, China, India and the other rapidly developing countries in Asia. We don't manufacture hardly anything anymore, we are a service economy and I don't think we would survive on our own.

Even if Ted Heath’s Tories had secured over 50 per cent of the votes cast at the 1970 general election, he would still not have had a mandate to join the then named European Economic Community (EEC), as he did in 1973. Heath was not standing on a single issue and the electorate vote for different parties for many different reasons. Heath was defeated at the subsequent election of 1974 and his successor Harold Wilson held a referendum on the EEC in 1975, which obviously went the way of the yes camp.

At this stage it’s important to note that the EEC was created with the single aim of bringing economic integration and a single market, hence the term common market. That’s what the British people voted yes for in 1975. In November 1993 the leaders of the member states signed the Maastrict Treaty and the European Union was born with far reaching powers over and above its original economic remit.

A lot of water has passed under the bridge since we joined 38 years ago and the fact is that the British people have been denied the chance to say yae or nae to the EU superstate in its current form. If I was given the chance I would most certainly vote for withdrawal. The unaccountable Eurocrats wouldn’t like it (tough sh*t) but, our democratically elected politicians could put this issue to bed one way or the other.

[Snowy]

History is what it is and cast in stone. It may be possible to dismantle the entire system and pull the UK out of the EU however, I don't believe that would be in our best interests even if it were possible. Maybe it would have been right not to join in the first place, who knows, but I don't believe its possible to reverse whats been done already. The goal posts have moved elsewhere since Heath, Wilson and Thatcher were on the playing field.

[redken1]

History is what it is and cast in stone. It may be possible to dismantle the entire system and pull the UK out of the EU however, I don't believe that would be in our best interests even if it were possible. Maybe it would have been right not to join in the first place, who knows, but I don't believe its possible to reverse whats been done already. The goal posts have moved elsewhere since Heath, Wilson and Thatcher were on the playing field.

That's my whole point Graeme. All the doubters like me would have to shut up and accept the EU if it was the will of the British people. I suspect that all the 3 mainstream pro-Europe parties won't hold a referendum for fear of defeat.

[Mark_Able]

[quote author=BMWGraeme link=1317244098/20#20 date=1317389880]I think it's a far too complicated a situation for many people to have a true understanding and therefore informed opinion on what would really be the right way to go. And even then there would still be differing views. If it really was that simple we would'nt be in this situation. We vote the government in, we all knew which parties wanted to join and which did'nt so we got what the majority voted for (or more accurately, the party with the biggest individual collection of minority votes). I certainly don't have anywhere near enough knowledge to form an informed opinion. Its easy to pick on just one part of an argument that we perceive as being negative and then come to the conclusion that the whole thing is bad.

The only thing I would prefer us to do is make our minds up which it's going to be. We are either in or out - all this sitting on the fence with one foot in and one foot out is never going to work longterm.

My uninformed opinion is that we should be in Europe and join the Euro. I can't see the the former giant that was Great Britain decades ago being able to survive against a United Europe (not now but will be at some point in the future I'm sure) the USA, China, India and the other rapidly developing countries in Asia. We don't manufacture hardly anything anymore, we are a service economy and I don't think we would survive on our own.

Even if Ted Heath’s Tories had secured over 50 per cent of the votes cast at the 1970 general election, he would still not have had a mandate to join the then named European Economic Community (EEC), as he did in 1973. Heath was not standing on a single issue and the electorate vote for different parties for many different reasons. Heath was defeated at the subsequent election of 1974 and his successor Harold Wilson held a referendum on the EEC in 1975, which obviously went the way of the yes camp.

At this stage it’s important to note that the EEC was created with the single aim of bringing economic integration and a single market, hence the term common market. That’s what the British people voted yes for in 1975. In November 1993 the leaders of the member states signed the Maastrict Treaty and the European Union was born with far reaching powers over and above its original economic remit.

A lot of water has passed under the bridge since we joined 38 years ago and the fact is that the British people have been denied the chance to say yae or nae to the EU superstate in its current form. If I was given the chance I would most certainly vote for withdrawal. The unaccountable Eurocrats wouldn’t like it (tough sh*t) but, our democratically elected politicians could put this issue to bed one way or the other.[/quote]

Well said our Ken...