Have people forgotten how to use their indicators!

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[quote author=Nicky link=1361444348/67#67 date=1361918545][quote author=BMWGraeme link=1361444348/66#66 date=1361918250]...... It doesn't state that you have to use your indicators in all situations but equally it doesn't state you shouldn't use them if you can't see any reason to do so. They would never make that kind of statement because it opens up a whole load of if's, but's and maybe's because everyone's observation skills are different and in my view, subjective.

Yes you are probably right.

I'm no legal expert and very happy to be proven wrong but I really dont think IAM, RoSPA and the Police have it wrong.


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If the law stated that you don't have to indicate it would set a legal precedent for every person who uttered the immortal words "Sorry Mate I Didn't See You".

I don't see that as being at odds with IAM/ROSPA etc. However, if they teach that you don't have to indicate if you're overtaking a tractor, then I'm for one at odds with their teachings. Just my opinion mind.[/quote]

No, IAM and RoSPA don’t teach you that you don’t have to indicate if you’re overtaking a tractor.

What I was trying to do is to give a scenario in which no one benefits from a signal but I realise what I visualised in my head is different to what others are visualising.

If you do any advanced riding which uses the Police system of riding, which in practice is most advance training including IAM and RoSPA, they will use the Police handbook, Motorcycle Roadcraft it tells you that you only give a signal when pedestrians or other road users will benefit. It then continues to explain the merits and reasons for doing this, the first being that it encourages you to be aware of what is happening around you especially behind.

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[quote author=Nicky link=1361444348/65#65 date=1361917241][quote author=dan_geoghegan link=1361444348/64#64 date=1361910079][quote author=Nicky link=1361444348/60#60 date=1361899115]

Scenario - you are on a long, straight, clear road approaching a tractor that's the only traffic on the road and you are going to overtake it on your bike. Are you saying you will indicate to overtake that tractor? If yes why?

Yes I would as here's why.
Farm vehicles are always covered in crap and their lights are rarely visable. The farmer wants to turn into a field, pull over to the right or do a u-turn. He checks his mirror, sees you, puts on his muck covered indicator and turns.
The first thing you know about his intention is as he swerves into your path. The first thing he knows about your intention is as your lifeless body is bouncing off of his tractor.

Couldn't hurt to indicate really could it?[/quote]

With the added details you've given no, and as the law doesn't require you to use an indicator in all circumstances you've clearly assessed the information and made a valid decision to indicate based on your observation.

I would have too with the additional information you've added. I was thinking of a more affluent arable farmer in the South of the county on a very straight road with no side turnings whatsoever and with my scenario I wouldn't have indicated because it wouldn't have benefited anyone

Still quite surprised you are adamant that the law requires indicators are always used which is at complete odds to the Police riders handbook.
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The "added" information is what advanced riding is all about. I'm not sure where you did yours but I would assume that any of the above factors were a possibility and therefore anything I could do to reduce the chance of an accident would be beneficial. Why would you assume that a tractor wouldn't pull over to the side of the road?
If you gave the same scenario to any police rider they would agree. It's your duty to let other road users know what your intentions are. The tractor is another road user and potential hazard.
The legalities count for nothing if you've got to spend the rest of your life in a wheelchair. [/quote]

You are very clearly building up a scenario which is different to that which I envisaged.

How about this –

You are on a motorway on your bike, the motorway is completely empty apart from one car which is in front of you – that one car is travelling at about 50mph in lane one. There are no slips roads or exits etc for miles. Its daylight, weather and road conditions are excellent. You are approaching the car and want to overtake. Do you indicate?

I guess you’ll say yes as -

1. you’ve already told me it’s the law (although you still havent told me what that law is)

2. you’ve told me to take it upon yourself to decide when the law applies to you is very bad form and

3. you’ve said you ALWAYS indicate.

I have no idea if you’ve done any form of advanced riding but if you have you’ll know that most of it is based on the Police system which is set out in Motorcycle Roadcraft – The Police Riders handbook to better motorcycling. The Police system advises that you should only give a signal when pedestrians or other road users would benefit.

I’m no expert, maybe you are a much better rider than me, maybe not, but personally I think the Police are pretty good riders, and cant help thinking it’s more than a wee bit arrogant to disregard the tried and tested system the Police use, which in turn is used by IAM and RoSPA but maybe you think they are all wrong?

[Snowy]

[quote author=Nicky You are on a motorway on your bike, the motorway is completely empty apart from one car which is in front of you – that one car is travelling at about 50mph in lane one. There are no slips roads or exits etc for miles. Its daylight, weather and road conditions are excellent. You are approaching the car and want to overtake. Do you indicate?[/quote]

I'll let WB answer for himself, but in the scenario you have described, here's a possible and in my view reasonable answer as to why you should indicate.

Firstly, there is another road user that would benefit from your signal.

Secondly, and to give my reasoning for the first, is that you cannot see exactly the same as the driver infront of you. You're in the lane behind so a big junk of road is invisible to you as its infront of his car. In his lane he quickly comes across a large hazard in the middle of his lane, lets say a deer which happens frequently certainly in my neck of the woods. He's going to move one way or another to avoid it. My guess is that he would automatically move from lane 1 to lane 2 which is the one you're going to move into without indicating. If he looks in his mirror before making what is normally a fairly sudden manoeuver and see's your indicator flashing, then he or she can make an informed decision over what they are going to do in order to avoid a collision with the deer carcass or you.

I tend to look at these things from a different perspective. If there's a driver infront of you who's signalling or lack of, is going to affect you, then the reverse also applies, and your own signalling must be of benefit to them if only for information purposes. So in the above scenario, if you see the car infront indicate to move out from lane 1 to lane 2 to avoid a hazard, then that is information of benefit to you. To my way of thinking, the reverse then applies so an indication from me is going to benefit the car infront.

I don't want to get dragged into this whole IAM/ROSPA debate again. I have not done it so cannot comment. I'm sure the training is of great benefit to many and I have the utmost personal regard for police motorcyclists. But I think its possible to get caught into thinking its all very black and white which I don't think it is. The roads are ever changing in traffic, conditions, other users and all manner of things that happen every time we go out on our bikes. Observation is key to all this and training helps many in this aspect, but I think it should be tempered with common sense and experience as you're continually risk assessing as you ride. You have to make these decisions all the time and getting stuck in always doing things the same way, in my view, limits that risk assessing.

Also, just wanted to add that I had it drummed into me as a lad when I first started riding and driving many moons ago to "Mirror (Lifesaver), Signal, Manouever". Is that not taught anymore?

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Hi Snowy

Absolutely understand what you are saying.

I truly don't profess to be an expert yes I've done advanced training and I am an advanced rider but still have lots to learn and to continue learning.

I actually think the Police riders are some of the best you'll see and fact is they use a system which advises that you only give a signal when pedestrians or road users would benefit.

The system is pretty well tried and tested so I really do struggle to accept the Police, and any (probably most) advanced training organisations who use the police system are wrong.

When you do advanced riding you do more than the old ''Mirror Signal Manoeuvre'' you use a system of hazard perception.

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Allow me to throw this in to the mix, based on Nicky’s described scenario of an empty motorway, apart from the one vehicle up ahead in lane one. You look in your mirrors and all lanes behind you are clear so you decide to move in to lane two early. You execute the manoeuvre at 70mph allowing more than enough stopping distance between you and the vehicle ahead, should the driver suddenly cross over in to lane two without giving you any prior notice (indicating). Why would you begin to overtake any later when the road up ahead and behind is completely clear and therefore, I can’t really see who would benefit from indication in such a situation. On the other hand, if you feel the need to indicate I can’t see that it matters.

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Snowy in my scenario just to add if the driver sees a hazard you havent and swerves in an emergency do you really think he/she is going to check his mirror first and assuming they do, do you really think having your indicator on is going to make any difference? I dont.

I dont want to get too hung up on a specific scenario but I do agree with the Police system and I do think there are times when giving a signal is of no benefit so dont do it. Rare yes but it does happen.

[QB1]

Allow me to throw this in to the mix, based on Nicky’s described scenario of an empty motorway, apart from the one vehicle up ahead in lane one. You look in your mirrors and all lanes behind you are clear so you decide to move in to lane two early. You execute the manoeuvre at 70mph allowing more than enough stopping distance between you and the vehicle ahead, should the driver suddenly cross over in to lane two without giving you any prior notice (indicating). Why would you begin to overtake any later when the road up ahead and behind is completely clear and therefore, I can’t really see who would benefit from indication in such a situation. On the other hand, if you feel the need to indicate I can’t see that it matters.

In this scenario I'd be out in lane 2 nice and early to maximise my view.

It's not a problem to indicate; the problem is if you do it without thinking about it, and I suspect a heck of a lot of people do just stick an indicator on automatically with little regard to what they are doing it for and why.

If you are always considering if a signal is of benefit to other road users it's encouraging you to be alert and aware of what's all around you and that's got to be good That's why the Police teach and use this system.

[Snowy]

Snowy in my scenario just to add if the driver sees a hazard you havent and swerves in an emergency do you really think he/she is going to check his mirror first and assuming they do, do you really think having your indicator on is going to make any difference? I dont.

I dont want to get too hung up on a specific scenario but I do agree with the Police system and I do think there are times when giving a signal is of no benefit so dont do it. Rare yes but it does happen.

Nicky, we're actually not far in agreement here, our difference seems to be a very subjective one which is deciding when a signal is of benefit or not. If I could be absolutely 100% sure that an indication is not necessary in any shape or form then I won't indicate. My problem with understanding your logic is that if there's any another road user anywhere near me, I tend to think that there may be something I might not be able to see or have missed in my observation or that might happen unexpectedly. I'm not in control of the car infront, I don't know what sort of a day the drivers having, I don't know if he's suffering with a cold or whether he's had an argument with his wife and therefore not concentrating. I think an indication may or may not be useful to the driver infront, but I don't believe in 100% guarantees in this regard. Indicating is just one of the tools available to you that reduces your risk on the roads and since it cannot be anything else other than a positive thing to do, I will take the option of indicating whether the driver infront decides to react to it or not. If I'm looking in my mirrors I find it useful to me to see if anyone's indicating behind me so why should I think anything different of anyone else?

I would be really interested to see what a police motorcyclist would answer given both of the scenarios you have put forward. Would their answer be based upon purely what they think they can see as you've described it or would they also factor in an extra safety factor to take into account the other things that may be missed? Again, this is based on my belief that 100% observation, whilst being a goal, is not a reality.

I would also like to add that I'm not a saint when it comes to riding my bike and I'm not a riding god either. The above is based as a theoretical answer to what I like to think I should do as an answer to questions raised in this thread. What I actually do on the road is based on gut feel, perhaps 35 years of riding experience and a little bit of luck

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[quote author=Nicky link=1361444348/75#75 date=1361960590]Snowy in my scenario just to add if the driver sees a hazard you havent and swerves in an emergency do you really think he/she is going to check his mirror first and assuming they do, do you really think having your indicator on is going to make any difference? I dont.

I dont want to get too hung up on a specific scenario but I do agree with the Police system and I do think there are times when giving a signal is of no benefit so dont do it. Rare yes but it does happen.

Nicky, we're actually not far in agreement here, our difference seems to be a very subjective one which is deciding when a signal is of benefit or not. If I could be absolutely 100% sure that an indication is not necessary in any shape or form then I won't indicate. My problem with understanding your logic is that if there's any another road user anywhere near me, I tend to think that there may be something I might not be able to see or have missed in my observation or that might happen unexpectedly. I'm not in control of the car infront, I don't know what sort of a day the drivers having, I don't know if he's suffering with a cold or whether he's had an argument with his wife and therefore not concentrating. I think an indication may or may not be useful to the driver infront, but I don't believe in 100% guarantees in this regard. Indicating is just one of the tools available to you that reduces your risk on the roads and since it cannot be anything else other than a positive thing to do, I will take the option of indicating whether the driver infront decides to react to it or not. If I'm looking in my mirrors I find it useful to me to see if anyone's indicating behind me so why should I think anything different of anyone else?

I would be really interested to see what a police motorcyclist would answer given both of the scenarios you have put forward. Would their answer be based upon purely what they think they can see as you've described it or would they also factor in an extra safety factor to take into account the other things that may be missed? Again, this is based on my belief that 100% observation, whilst being a goal, is not a reality.

I would also like to add that I'm not a saint when it comes to riding my bike and I'm not a riding god either. The above is based as a theoretical answer to what I like to think I should do as an answer to questions raised in this thread. What I actually do on the road is based on gut feel, perhaps 35 years of riding experience and a little bit of luck [/quote]

Hi Snowy

No I dont think we're a million miles apart at all.

All I've really be trying to put across here is that as road users we dont have to give a signal, one of which is to use an indicator, and I was just trying to give some scenarios where it is possible that based solely on what I said that an indicator wouldnt benefit anyone, but I quite accept in reality you have many more factors to consider in making that decision. I suspect thats why in the Police handbook they avoid giving any examples.

Again until I'd done any advanced training the idea of not indicating seemed crazy but when you think about it, read and are told why the Police do what they do I understood the reasoning. After 30 odd years of doing it my way Advanced Riding and the Police system was, for me, a bit of an eye opener.

[Snowy]

When I went for a ride with a police instructor on a Bikesafe day I was first off, police bike behind me and other punter behind him. After 2 or 3 minutes he put his blues and two's on and waved for me to stop which I have to admit was a bit unnerving (first time nerves). He came over to me and said that I'm not doing an IAM exam, he wants to see how I ride in the real world. So, off we set again and had a great 20 minutes or so of quick (but not illegal) riding and overtakes. At the end of that he said, that was very good, just a couple of points. I didn't indicate left when taking the first exit (which was straight on) at a mini roundabout as the oncoming traffic wants to know where you're going even if they are not going that way. Secondly he wanted me 12 inches further out to the right on left handers. I then had great fun trying to keep up with him as he took the lead to show me how far over he thought I should be.

Take from that whatever you will but in the case of the mini roundabouts, I wasn't indicating because I didn't think my actions were going to affect anyone else and he disagreed. Just goes to show its not all black & white I suppose

Everyone should have a go at the Bikesafe rideouts - a bit unnerving for a while but really good fun.