Have people forgotten how to use their indicators!

[QB1]

[quote author=Nicky link=1361444348/53#53 date=1361864921]

Of course it's daft and potentially dangerous not to indicate if necessary, but, the point I am making is that it isn't always necessary to indicate.

Sometimes people who indicate without giving any thought to what they are doing and why (ie in particular checking what's behind/around them first) and just indicate and move are as bad as people who dont ever use indicators.

I disagree. To assume that you're aware of every potential hazzard on the road is pure arrogance. That is the same attitude that the one flash wonders have as they shoot from lane to lane not giving a **** about the other road users.
It might not ALWAYS be necessary but it's the law and to take it upon yourself to decide when the law applies to you is very bad form.
I've had one crash and didn't hit my head. Does that mean I don't always need my helmet?
[/quote]

With respect I don't think you'll find any legislation that says regardless of the circumstances and situation you are in you must indicate? But always happy to be proven wrong.

Without sounding sarcastic and it truly isnt meant that way but you'll find when/if you do any advanced riding you will be taught that using an indicator is to give information its how the Police and advanced riders ride - if it wont benefit anyone you don't do it. What that means is that you do actually really think about what you are doing and when and if you need to use an indicator.

Scenario - you are on a long, straight, clear road approaching a tractor that's the only traffic on the road and you are going to overtake it on your bike. Are you saying you will indicate to overtake that tractor? If yes why?

The reference to your helmet isnt relevant at all your helmet isnt used to give information to other road users as an indicator should.

[QB1]

How about looking at it this way. Of course, there can be no argument that indicators should be used when necessary. Of course there can be no argument about the fact that they should be used properly and appropriately etc etc. The debate that seems to be running as an undercurrent through this thread is whether they need to be used if they're not necessary. My own view is similar to WB's in that as we're all human we can make errors. That can include errors with our observation of what's around us, so to be in the habit of indicating regardless of whether its necessary or not I see as a positive thing and a good habit to be in. This would be the correct and appropriate use of an indicator - I'm not talking about what happens when people don't turn them off or don't look before indicating etc.

Look at this way - what harm does it do to anybody if you indicate unnecessarily? Who's it going to hurt? Conversely, what harm does it do if you don't indicate and missed seeing the biker who's sat in your blind side and is commited to an overtake?

I do take your point actually and it was something I did struggle a bit with when doing my advanced bike training recently.

In reality when you are riding 'by the book' it does assume you are giving 100% concentration and have perfect observation. Hard in the real world.

Look at this way - what harm does it do to anybody if you indicate unnecessarily?

I agree. The point I was trying to make is that the danger comes when people just indicate and move. Indicating on auto without thinking about what they are doing and it was just for that reason that I had a crash a few years ago.

[Snowy]

Scenario - you are on a long, straight, clear road approaching a tractor that's the only traffic on the road and you are going to overtake it on your bike. Are you saying you will indicate to overtake that tractor? If yes why?

In that instance I would indicate so the tractor driver would know I'm about to overtake him. That's giving information to another road user that my actions are going to affect one way or another. Then he may (or may not) think twice about turning right into his farmyard without indicating.

[Snowy]

[quote author=Nicky] The point I was trying to make is that the danger comes when people just indicate and move. Indicating on auto without thinking about what they are doing and it was just for that reason that I had a crash a few years ago. [/quote]

Completely agree with that

[wiltshire builders]

Scenario - you are on a long, straight, clear road approaching a tractor that's the only traffic on the road and you are going to overtake it on your bike. Are you saying you will indicate to overtake that tractor? If yes why?

Yes I would as here's why.
Farm vehicles are always covered in crap and their lights are rarely visable. The farmer wants to turn into a field, pull over to the right or do a u-turn. He checks his mirror, sees you, puts on his muck covered indicator and turns.
The first thing you know about his intention is as he swerves into your path. The first thing he knows about your intention is as your lifeless body is bouncing off of his tractor.

Couldn't hurt to indicate really could it?

[QB1]

[quote author=Nicky link=1361444348/60#60 date=1361899115]

Scenario - you are on a long, straight, clear road approaching a tractor that's the only traffic on the road and you are going to overtake it on your bike. Are you saying you will indicate to overtake that tractor? If yes why?

Yes I would as here's why.
Farm vehicles are always covered in crap and their lights are rarely visable. The farmer wants to turn into a field, pull over to the right or do a u-turn. He checks his mirror, sees you, puts on his muck covered indicator and turns.
The first thing you know about his intention is as he swerves into your path. The first thing he knows about your intention is as your lifeless body is bouncing off of his tractor.

Couldn't hurt to indicate really could it?[/quote]

With the added details you've given no, and as the law doesn't require you to use an indicator in all circumstances you've clearly assessed the information and made a valid decision to indicate based on your observation.

I would have too with the additional information you've added. I was thinking of a more affluent arable farmer in the South of the county on a very straight road with no side turnings whatsoever and with my scenario I wouldn't have indicated because it wouldn't have benefited anyone

Still quite surprised you are adamant that the law requires indicators are always used which is at complete odds to the Police riders handbook.

[Snowy]

My take on that is that the Highway Code states you must use your indicators to inform other road users of your intended actions. It doesn't state that you have to use your indicators in all situations but equally it doesn't state you shouldn't use them if you can't see any reason to do so. They would never make that kind of statement because it opens up a whole load of if's, but's and maybe's because everyone's observation skills are different and in my view, subjective.

[QB1]

...... It doesn't state that you have to use your indicators in all situations but equally it doesn't state you shouldn't use them if you can't see any reason to do so. They would never make that kind of statement because it opens up a whole load of if's, but's and maybe's because everyone's observation skills are different and in my view, subjective.

Yes you are probably right.

I'm no legal expert and very happy to be proven wrong but I really dont think IAM, RoSPA and the Police have it wrong.

[Snowy]

[quote author=BMWGraeme link=1361444348/66#66 date=1361918250]...... It doesn't state that you have to use your indicators in all situations but equally it doesn't state you shouldn't use them if you can't see any reason to do so. They would never make that kind of statement because it opens up a whole load of if's, but's and maybe's because everyone's observation skills are different and in my view, subjective.

Yes you are probably right.

I'm no legal expert and very happy to be proven wrong but I really dont think IAM, RoSPA and the Police have it wrong.


[/quote]

If the law stated that you don't have to indicate it would set a legal precedent for every person who uttered the immortal words "Sorry Mate I Didn't See You".

I don't see that as being at odds with IAM/ROSPA etc. However, if they teach that you don't have to indicate if you're overtaking a tractor, then I'm for one at odds with their teachings. Just my opinion mind.

[wiltshire builders]

[quote author=dan_geoghegan link=1361444348/64#64 date=1361910079][quote author=Nicky link=1361444348/60#60 date=1361899115]

Scenario - you are on a long, straight, clear road approaching a tractor that's the only traffic on the road and you are going to overtake it on your bike. Are you saying you will indicate to overtake that tractor? If yes why?

Yes I would as here's why.
Farm vehicles are always covered in crap and their lights are rarely visable. The farmer wants to turn into a field, pull over to the right or do a u-turn. He checks his mirror, sees you, puts on his muck covered indicator and turns.
The first thing you know about his intention is as he swerves into your path. The first thing he knows about your intention is as your lifeless body is bouncing off of his tractor.

Couldn't hurt to indicate really could it?[/quote]

With the added details you've given no, and as the law doesn't require you to use an indicator in all circumstances you've clearly assessed the information and made a valid decision to indicate based on your observation.

I would have too with the additional information you've added. I was thinking of a more affluent arable farmer in the South of the county on a very straight road with no side turnings whatsoever and with my scenario I wouldn't have indicated because it wouldn't have benefited anyone

Still quite surprised you are adamant that the law requires indicators are always used which is at complete odds to the Police riders handbook.
[/quote]
The "added" information is what advanced riding is all about. I'm not sure where you did yours but I would assume that any of the above factors were a possibility and therefore anything I could do to reduce the chance of an accident would be beneficial. Why would you assume that a tractor wouldn't pull over to the side of the road?
If you gave the same scenario to any police rider they would agree. It's your duty to let other road users know what your intentions are. The tractor is another road user and potential hazard.
The legalities count for nothing if you've got to spend the rest of your life in a wheelchair.