Re: Anyone heard the news?
Oh Scotty dont even get me started on the little ****s that get away with things that to me I think they should have either there hands chopped off or sent to the hang man......
Re: Anyone heard the news?
Playing devils advocate to a degree - but we all know that 2 wrongs don't make a right.
Just because other people get away with things, doesn't mean that bikers should be able to behave recklessly.
Of course the law should be applied fairly to all road user and punishments should be proportional.
However 166 in a 60 limit is more than a "bit fast" scotty.
Come off it.
It's way too fast to be in control and taking everything in considering there's old people, learners, pedestrians, cyclisat etc. out there.
My mum's only in her 60's and she lives in a 30 zone.
She struggles to get across the road on foot in a 30 zone.
Not everyone has fighter pilot reactions or can move lightning fast.
Fine for the track, but that's downright reckless on a public road.
I do agree that 9 months seems a bit harsh and that other people get away with worse things.
But a custodial sentence and a ban seems quite appropriate to me.
The ban can't be relied upon on it's own because many people just ignore them anyway.
What sort of impression do you think 166 gives to non-bikers?
Re: Anyone heard the news?
Reckless it was aqnd punishment should have been metted out but when drunk drivers who kill ony get 6 months this does seem a bit over the top. It does seem that bikers seem to get double the punishment of car drivers.
Re: Anyone heard the news?
I agree that it appears out of balance on the face of it.
But unless any of us went to all the court cases and heard all the evidence then we don't know the full story do we?
We only know what the journos decide to print so I think we have to bear that in mind.
It would be very easy to form a false opinion just by reading what editors have decided will sell papers.
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Problem with UK courts is there is no consistency between them most of the time...they have guidelines on what to hand out but it's upto them to decide what they give to people...they may of felt in this case they needed to make an example of this person to others.
How their guidelines work...
Anything over 1.5 times the speed limit and your looking at a ban...(between 1-3 months)...over twice the speed limit then your looking at a serious ban (1 year +) and potentially jail time as well.
So on that basis the sentence he got was inline with their guidelines.
I agree in many cases the sentences for theft etc are often too soft...however the difference with this biker doing 166 in a 60 is the real potential to kill himself and others...which would equate to murder.
I'm not going to preach about him being in the wrong etc...as I'm not squeaky clean and nor are many others on here I'm sure...You just need to always remind yourself it's you who has to live with the consequences of your actions so ride appropriately to the conditions/situations presented to you at the time.
Re: Anyone heard the news?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducatista
It's way too fast to be in control....
Au contraire Ducatista, had he been out of control he'd surely have crashed?
I'm not advocating that he should escape without any punishment, but a 9-month sentence and 5-year ban is way more than drunk drivers get, and their actions are just as consciously committed and surely far more dangerous than his?
The penultimate sentence of the article states that "Last year more than 20 motorists were caught travelling at more than 100mph on the Dolphinton stretch of the A702" so it's seen by many road users as a decent enough place to do high speeds on - not legally obviously, but were it blatantly unsafe, they wouldn't choose to do it.
All I'm saying is let the punishment fit the crime - read your local paper or watch the news or the traffic cop fly-on-the-wall programmes to see how lightly everyone else gets treated in comparison... ::)
Re: Anyone heard the news?
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Originally Posted by Scotty
and their actions are just as consciously committes and surely far more dangerous than his?
On what basis to you say that?
What's the evidence for your judgement of the relevant dangers?
If I was driving a car I think I'd rather take my chances with a drunk driver than a speeding motobike getting in my driving seat.
At least it's a blunt instrument.
I honestly think I'd stand a better chance.
Re: Anyone heard the news?
Maybe the question is not was he in control of his bike, but was he in control of everything or everyone else that may have wanted to, and have the same rights to use, the same piece of tarmac at the same time? He was lucky not to kill himself or, more importantly, anyone else. It had nothing to do with any skill or judgment on his part - just luck.
I can't comment on the sentence as I don't possess the necessary knowledge or experience to do so.
Re: Anyone heard the news?
You mentioned drink driving...
That instantly carries a minimum 1 year ban and jail time(normally)...but for them it gets worse. (Normally most judges hand out a 2-3 year ban and 3-6 months in the cell unless dangerous driving is also chucked into the mix)
The drink driving ban you receive would stay on your licence for 11 years I believe it is...and virtually no-one will insure you unless you've got a very deep pocket...also with that on there you'd be amazed how many people won't give you a job either!
I personally don't know the road myself it could be dead straight for miles...but like Beemerman says your not the only one on it and you have no control over other road users + other variables like wildlife/road condition/weather etc.
On a final note, I almost died this year doing a 1/3 of that speed avoiding what I believed to be someone putting me at risk...several good friends of mine almost witnessed my death...there's a fine line on a bike between being safe and in control and being in a whole world of ****...if your doing 166 and someone/something else is about to cause injury to yourself what chance would you have to get out of it alive?
PS: If you instantly crash at 70mph or more you would instantly die from internal organ damage as you stop but they all keep accelerating towards the front of your body and get in effect liquidised...Worth keeping in mind next time you decide to nail it up a piece of road.
PPS: That pic Ducatista posted was of a car that without looking just pulled out into the road I believe just as the bike was about to cross their path...I don't know what speed he/she was doing (looks like a VFR400 they are good for 120 ish), but they had no chance at all and found the rider INSIDE the car with the driver and a passenger I believe.
Re: Anyone heard the news?
Quote:
PS: If you instantly crash at 70mph or more you would instantly die from internal organ damage as you stop but they all keep accelerating towards the front of your body and get in effect liquidised...Worth keeping in mind next time you decide to nail it up a piece of road.
Can you elaborate on "instantly crash" at all? I've crashed travelling in excess of 70mph a number of times on road and racetrack and as far as I can tell I'm still alive. Sure, if one hits an immovable object such as a tree, truck, or a wall at 30mph then the likelihood of surviving isn't great, but riding bikes and staying alive is all about managing risks. Weigh up the potential consequences and act accordingly.
I'm not advocating that everyone rides their bikes flat-out whenever they can, but that the judicial system keep things in perspective... You ride your bikes how you prefer to and I'll ride mine the way I like to, that way we can all be happy :)
Re: Anyone heard the news?
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Originally Posted by Scotty
Can you elaborate on "instantly crash" at all? I've crashed travelling in excess of 70mph a number of times on road and racetrack and as far as I can tell I'm still alive. Sure, if one hits an immovable object such as a tree, truck, or a wall at 30mph then the likelihood of surviving isn't great, but riding bikes and staying alive is all about managing risks. Weigh up the potential consequences and act accordingly.
Instantly = stop dead...I.e. something stops you travelling further...this could be a solid object if on a bike or a seatbelt in a car.
There’s big a difference between "managing risks" and taking "unnecessary risks"...I believe this instance of 166 falls into the latter.
I like the fact you've had so many "crashes" that you can base you views on, but I expect in most if not all of them you were able to reduce your speed before you came off...chances are that's the only reason your "still alive"
End of the day...something many bikers don't get is....
It's not worth dying for!
Going back to the original Q of the sentence given, like I said it's within the guidelines so fair cop IMO.
Re: Anyone heard the news?
Quote:
Originally Posted by furry-TLR
You mentioned drink driving...
That instantly carries a minimum 1 year ban and jail time(normally)...but for them it gets worse. (Normally most judges hand out a 2-3 year ban and 3-6 months in the cell unless dangerous driving is also chucked into the mix)
The drink driving ban you receive would stay on your licence for 11 years I believe it is...and virtually no-one will insure you unless you've got a very deep pocket...also with that on there you'd be amazed how many people won't give you a job either!
On the drink driving topic.....
I got arrested for Drink Driving! I had 2 pints after work and was driving home with the sun roof open... in November as the car was over heating. That was why I was stopped as it was midnight! I was breathalized and only just tipped over the mark.
On arriving at the Police station I was breathalized on the machien and recorded a score of 43 - the limit is 40. I was offered a blood test, the Doctor was paged and I was told I'd probably "Ok" as he would take an hour+ to get there. It turned out he was in the next cell! My reading was 86 with the limit being 80. I got a mandtory 1 year ban & £80 fine + £40 costs. The ban stays on my license till next Feb (10 years not 11) and IF I get caught with in that time again I get a 3 year ban, a high fine & have to sit the advanced test! There was no talk of custody at any stage. May be because I was only just over the limit!
There are insurers who accept DD drivers with no major penalty BUT hit speeders hard!!
Yes I lost my job! Yes it was hard to see my kids as I had to travel by bus from Melksham to Malmesbury... 30 mins by car ... 2HOURS+ by bus!
I got a job with not too much of a problem doing the fundraising, which I have grown to a stage where Im an Area Team Fundraising Manager and in the last 3 weeks, been head-hunted for a second time as Im bloody good at my job!!
Is Drink Driving a bad thing.... YES of course it is!! Can it ruin the lives of others... YES the evidence is plain to see. Is it the most heanous crime in the world...NO! Is there a way to learn from it and move forward from it YES! I have!!
Am I proud of my crime? NO!! I am at least honest about it and it HAS made me a better person for being caught!
Re: Anyone heard the news?
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Can you elaborate on "instantly crash" at all? I've crashed travelling in excess of 70mph a number of times on road and racetrack and as far as I can tell I'm still alive.
There's a difference between crashing and carrying on e.g. sliding down a track and coming to a dead stop (like the bike did inside that car).
The problem with stopping instantly is that your organs carry on going, so for example one of the things that happens is your heart carries on moving inside your chest and your aorta (major blood vessel suplpying blood to the heart) is literally ripped out from your heart. It's quite short and not designed to move very far.
If you slide down the track or are thrown from your vehicle (or manage to jump off) then you have a much better chance.
There was an accident on the A350 a few months ago when several bikers were going down to Poole. A volvo pulled out from a layby.
The first bike hit the bonnet, flew over and broke his arm. The second biker hit the car in the middle and just stopped dead and he was killed. The body cannot cope with massive deceleration.
There are 2 main problems I have with this thread.
One is along the lines of what Beemerman said.
Quote:
I can't comment on the sentence as I don't possess the necessary knowledge or experience to do so.
We have very few facts.
There are differences in every case and relying on sensational media reports and entertainment programs is dangerous.
It's possible the guys attitude was taken into account when sentencing and also many other factors.
We have virtually no facts at all on this thread about cases, only opinions and judgments from a flimsy media base.
The other issue is that I agree with a lot of posters (like JP) that this largely comes down to individual responsibiity.
Sure the police, council and other motorists have a part to play but mainly it's down to us.
Whipping up sentiment in a anti-establishment direction and making everyone feel they are victimised and persecuted is not particularly helpful towards encouraging personal responsibility.
Quote:
I'm not advocating that everyone rides their bikes flat-out whenever they can, but that the judicial system keep things in perspective
I agree with Beemerman.
We don't know the circumstances or the guys attitude or the details of other cases.
So you don't have a good basis for saying it's not in perspective.
Re: Anyone heard the news?
166????.....was he in 5th or did he have a poorly gsxr thou ;-)
JP, murder is premeditated.......Manslaughter is death as a consequence of an action....
Everyone now please feel free to slag me off too........
cos ive seen 186 on the speedo a few times.... :-)
Re: Anyone heard the news?
I've tried keeping out of this as I do know of the rider that was busted and to be honest you do the crime do the time! Yes I was known for my antics on the road and have been well in excess if 186 but a few court cases later and learnt my lesson (even though i managed to get off on a technicality on the last one! and i was advised I could face upto 2 years imprisonment)
Bringing the death of one of my friends into the conversation regarding speeding I am not to amused with though as there was no confirmation of him speeding and it still hurts to discuss the incident
But my personal opinion is you know the score and that they're clamping down so if you do speed and get busted - tough luck! I might visit you in the slammer [smiley=thumbsup.gif] Do I agree with the length of time probably not but then again you killed one of my family members doing 160 in a 60 I'd probably want you dead anyway, and a prison sentance wouldn't be long enough.
I was also involved in a major accident on Akers way where 5 of my friends were killed and many injured in 1991 with someone doing approx 90 in a 40 lost control and piled into them sat at a bench - he got 5 years which i feel is way too short
Re: Anyone heard the news?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davey
Bringing the death of one of my friends into the conversation regarding speeding I am not to amused with though as there was no confirmation of him speeding and it still hurts to discuss the incident
Being sensitive to the issue here, if your comment about your friend is in reference to the point made by Ducatista in her previous post, I don't think there was any mention or intent to imply that any of the bikers were speeding. The context of the point being made was with a body's ability to withstand sudden deceleration when coming to an instantaneous stop from whatever speed.
I totally agree with your remarks would it be family or friends involved in avoidable RTA's - punishment handouts would never be enough.
Re: Anyone heard the news?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnydangerous
166????.....was he in 5th or did he have a poorly gsxr thou ;-)
JP, murder is premeditated.......Manslaughter is death as a consequence of an action....
Everyone now please feel free to slag me off too........
cos ive seen 186 on the speedo a few times.... :-)
JD,
GSXR clocks may show 186, doesn’t mean they are actually doing that speed as we all know bike clocks are over-calibrated…chances are when he got clocked at doing an actual 166 he was flat out.
…and anyway…considering your recent bad luck where your lucky to also still be alive, let alone still have your leg attached…I am not sure if your post that comes across as “bragging” to the masses is even appropriate?
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Whipping up sentiment in a anti-establishment direction and making everyone feel they are victimised and persecuted is not particularly helpful towards encouraging personal responsibility.
That has to be one of the best statements I've seen online in a long time. [smiley=thumbsup.gif] I've been busted and gone to court before for speed and at no point did I ever feel that what I recieved was un-fair...I did the crime so I did the time.
Re: Anyone heard the news?
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Bringing the death of one of my friends into the conversation regarding speeding I am not to amused
Sorry stu.
At that point I was talking about the effects of massive deceleration on the body and that incident was a good example of both types of stopping.
I didn't intend there to be any connection with speeding, but I'm sorry if it caused you any upset anyway.
Re: Anyone heard the news?
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I like the fact you've had so many "crashes" that you can base you views on, but I expect in most if not all of them you were able to reduce your speed before you came off...chances are that's the only reason your "still alive"
Oh, you like that, it pleases you does it? At least I'm talking about things from the perspective of experience, not sanctimony. And no, you're way off the mark about being able to reduce speed before crashing - were that possible, the crash would be avoided - not possible when racing I'm afraid, crashes tend not to give an awful lot of warning before they happen, even on the road. The reason that I'm still alive is down to primarily two factors factors;- doing it where it's safe (ie. racetracks, or open roads away from traffic, junctions, road furniture, people etc.), and wearing the proper gear.
By the way, if you're going to be high and mighty, learn to puntuate properly; "your" is a possessive, "you're" is an abbreviation of "you are", which I believe is what you're trying to convey.
To return to my original point about the judicial system over-reacting in this case, may I present two pieces of evidence to make the case?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lanc ... 739670.stm
Stolen car, no license or insurance, hit and run killed a 3 year old girl.......and gets 12 weeks in jail.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nort ... 303744.stm
130MPH, police chase, 9 bags of dope.... 80hours community service.
Don't speed - Kill people, less jail time.
Re: Anyone heard the news?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotty
To return to my original point about the judicial system over-reacting in this case, may I present two pieces of evidence to make the case?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lanc ... 739670.stm
Stolen car, no license or insurance, hit and run killed a 3 year old girl.......and gets 12 weeks in jail.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nort ... 303744.stm
130MPH, police chase, 9 bags of dope.... 80hours community service.
Don't speed - Kill people, less jail time.
As stated time and time again...I don't think the judicial system over-reacted in the case of the biker doing 166.
The links you have posted up just show in those cases the judicial system were too soft...if you feel so strongly about those cases write to the Justice Secretary with your concerns and see if anything changes?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotty
Quote:
I like the fact you've had so many "crashes" that you can base you views on, but I expect in most if not all of them you were able to reduce your speed before you came off...chances are that's the only reason your "still alive"
Oh, you like that, it pleases you does it? At least I'm talking about things from the perspective of experience, not sanctimony. And no, you're way off the mark about being able to reduce speed before crashing - were that possible, the crash would be avoided - not possible when racing I'm afraid, crashes tend not to give an awful lot of warning before they happen, even on the road. The reason that I'm still alive is down to primarily two factors factors;- doing it where it's safe (ie. racetracks, or open roads away from traffic, junctions, road furniture, people etc.), and wearing the proper gear.
By the way, if you're going to be high and mighty, learn to puntuate properly; "your" is a possessive, "you're" is an abbreviation of "you are", which I believe is what you're trying to convey.
I like it because like me you’re basing your view on years of experience...Your experiences shape your perception of things...However your views are purely based on the limited number of experiences you have had...that creates a bias for your views.
Like you say on racetracks there is less things for you to hit, as they are made as safe as possible...allowing the chance of a better outcome should you crash....On the road like you have also said, there is much more going on...which is exactly what I and everyone else has been saying hence 166 in a 60 isn't really doing your odd's any favours should you crash...Regardless of how clear you think the road is/looks at the time.
...and to me even when your off the bike sliding up the road that's still the crash taking place...laws of momentum dictate the induced force is reduced if the time the impact takes place is increased...i.e. you don't crash instantly into something hard...A point clearly outlined by Ducatista
Having the right gear helps, but it doesn't make you bulletproof/invincible...again it's just anonther way of increasing your chances of survival, like other things such as advanced riding, bike technology etc.
Finally, you will have to blame Bill Gates for the spelling/grammar, word checks all my posts before they come online, and pointed out to me that you spelt “puntuate” wrong it should be punctuate.
You’ve lost this argument already quit before you dig yourself any deeper.
Re: Anyone heard the news?
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At least I'm talking about things from the perspective of experience, not sanctimony
I very much hope it isn't necessary to have lots of crashes before being able to learn anything, cos I'm really trying very hard to do it the other way round :)
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Stolen car, no license or insurance, hit and run killed a 3 year old girl.......and gets 12 weeks in jail.
I think all of us would be furious with the sentencing if that was our little girl.
I don't think pulling out 2 cases where sentencing appears light, proves that there was an over-reaction in this case.
It certainly proves that there appears to be (on the face of it) a large degree of inconsistency in sentencing, but that does not prove the high sentence is wrong. Au contraire it would appear (without full knowledge of the cases) that the others are very light sentences.
I do think there are some issues with the legal system in this country.
Like that fact that if I speed in my husbands car and the NIP get's lost in the post, the he will get 6 points for non-disclosure of the driver. This is totally wrong that innocent people can be convicted.
I have more sympathy for innocent people than someone who knowingly took a risk, knowing the stakes.
I think there are lots of people more deserving of sympathy, like JD who has been let down by the law through no fault of his own.
So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but basically I think there are plenty of more deserving cases in the queue for sympathy.
Re: Anyone heard the news?
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However your views are purely based on the limited number of experiences you have had...that creates a bias for your views.
... and your vastly superior number of experiences create a truly unbiased view do they?
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Finally, you will have to blame Bill Gates for the spelling/grammar, word checks all my posts before they come online, and pointed out to me that you spelt “puntuate” wrong it should be punctuate.
I left in a typo, fair cop, I don't rely on software to correct either my spelling or my grammar, I find that a decent grasp of the English language is sufficient.
I'm also a qualified Mechanical Engineer so I don't need you to patronise me by failing to explain the equation for kinetic energy. I'm fully conversant with the effects on the body of sudden decelerations, thank you :)
I've neither condoned nor praised the actions of the rider concerned, and I'm also aware that none of us is in full possession of all the facts concerning the case, just what the press choose to tell us. He shouldn't have done what he did, but I feel that compared with the vermin who commit real crimes in this country, he's been treated fairly harshly. I don't believe that I have lost the case, nobody's a winner and as Ducatista says, we'll have to agree to differ.
Re: Anyone heard the news?
I'm not going to go through my experiences as I don't think many could stomach them, plus minors view this site.
Your the one who indicated you had a vast first hand experience in crashes thus in effect implying you had some sort of expert knowledge on the subject in some kind of vain attempt to justify your defence of the biker doing 166.
All I can say is, you don't see anyone criticising my opinions in this topic do you.
As I said before, if you feel judgement is unjust, write to the Justice Secretary about it your voicing your concerns at the wrong people. :-X
Re: Anyone heard the news?
In my opinion to get 9 months in jail for doing that speed on his own bike is harsh as he will have to report it to insurance companies for 5 years and will have to tell future employers of this fact to.
However i only think its harsh because as Scotty posts in his other links about the weak jail terms these other people got when clearly they have no respect for the other road users or laws of this country and couldn't care less what happened to them.
But the biker in question was obviously aware he was speeding, and he had no idea what could have been around the next corner, or what problems may be in the road ahead of him. So yes a punishment was needed but maybe there were other ways he could have been punished.
Maybe if there were to be harsher longer jail terms for the people mentioned in the other links such as 3,4 or 5 years in jail the bikers punishment wouldn't seem as harsh.
Oh and Ducatista, oh don't think there is anything wrong with having the odd little off, as you learn from these and i think it helps you to improve your riding. (well it helped me and a few mates when we first started out ;D)
