View Full Version : Prisoners to get the vote
DaytonaDog
05-11-10, 05:53 PM
As there have been some recent interesting discussions on here of a topical/political nature I thought I'd post this up as a topic for discussion as I'm interested in people views. This week it was decreed by the European court of human rights that it was a breach of human rights for the government to deny prisoners of all levels of offending the right to vote. What are you views on this. This can cover all aspects, ie Europe telling us how to legislate, the human rights act, and not just the prisoner vote.
redken1
05-11-10, 06:05 PM
Controversial, but interesting subject Chris - I believe that all prisoners who are on demand should have the right to vote in accordance with the principle that a defendant is innocent until proved guilty.
redken1
05-11-10, 06:06 PM
Sorry that should have been remand.
Yes I think they should be allowed to vote - they should be allowed a say in the future world that they will be released into.
silly_simon
05-11-10, 09:38 PM
Personally Chris I think they shouldn't be allowed :(
In my opinion by the nature of how they became prisoners was there choice and therefore they shouldnt have the any rights as far as this goes.
Thats my own personal view and as such should not be taken as an attack on anyone [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
Hmmm - interesting topic - invitation to lots of views where actually there is no wrong or right.
Should they have the right to vote? I think if someone burgles my house, steals my property, rapes my daughter or mugs my grandma , they rescinded their rights when they took the decision to perpetrate that crime - But are all prisoners in that easy decision pigeon hole - I don't know.
Is it right for Europe to dictate what our voting rights should be - probably not - but it's good if it gets us talking and thinking!
Not all prisoners are in such a clear cut position - some are even innocent! for that tiny minority losing their political voice as well as all their other rights is an additional wrong.
Ok - I'm on the fence on this one!
BladeTriple
06-11-10, 10:10 AM
(Hizzy here) I feel that if you commit a crime that gets you incarcerated that you have done something that has affected other peoples human rights and civil liberties and therefore you have absolutely no right to vote on what goes on in the outside world, you have forgone many human right by messing up. Lets face it they're enough of a drain on the system being locked up 24/7 and many of them ending up back inside again why the hell should they be allowed to vote while inside?
This has come around by some oxygen theif knowing he can work the system as shown in the press by his flaunting of the system smoking drugs in his cell...
The criminals who go down for rape, murder etc all the more serious crimes want to be glad that we no longer subscribe to capital or corporal punishment, they'd have something to complain about with their human rights then ... @r$eholes
Once again the 'unelected by us' in Brussels are telling the gummint what to do and if it isn't sorted will start handing out huge fines which ,of course, will be paid by us taxpayers.
Phone call.....'Is that Strasburg ?'.....'Ja'....'Viz a vie your order regards crim votes'...'Ja, ist our wish'..........'Errrrrrrr NEIN.....good day :)'
The answer for those convicted should be 'no'
but what percentage of these criminals actually voted when they could anyway?
I would guess not too high so in the great scheme of things does it really matter that 'Shotgun Willy' or 'Mac the knife' votes Green or whatever?
Just a thought - If this were to happen would this be by postal ballot for their non HM Pleasure address?
Surely that would be the correct way - but what then of the no fixed abode variety - would we the poor tax-paying victims of crime be fined for their loss of a vote?
The only other way would be to have the prison as their election home, presumably on the local election register. What would the local people and candidates think of the slanted increase in their electoral role? Would there have to be a polling staion within the prison?
Clearly an unworkable idea from overpaid underworked european beaurocrats with little more to do than legislate over the shape of cucumbers!
So I guess I'm off the fence :)
(Hizzy here) I feel that if you commit a crime that gets you incarcerated that you have done something that has affected other peoples human rights and civil liberties and therefore you have absolutely no right to vote on what goes on in the outside world, you have forgone many human right by messing up. Lets face it they're enough of a drain on the system being locked up 24/7 and many of them ending up back inside again why the hell should they be allowed to vote while inside?
This has come around by some oxygen theif knowing he can work the system as shown in the press by his flaunting of the system smoking drugs in his cell...
The criminals who go down for rape, murder etc all the more serious crimes want to be glad that we no longer subscribe to capital or corporal punishment, they'd have something to complain about with their human rights then ... @r$eholes
100% :)
redken1
06-11-10, 08:13 PM
I can't believe that I'm saying this, but PM Cameron has come in for some unfair stick regarding this latest ruling from "The Council of Europe"(COE), because it is out of his control. The UK is one of the 10 founder members of the COE, which was formed in 1949 and now has a membership of virtually the entire continent, with 47 member states. This means that as signed-up members all governments of the respective countries must comply with the "Convention on Human rights" and implement all of its articles. Unfortunately, along with all the other members, the UK cannot pick and choose which rulings are and are not adopted in to our domestic law. My understanding is that the only way that the UK can reverse this decision is to come out of The COE. Do we really want to stand alone in Europe?
Mitch9128
07-11-10, 08:52 AM
Hopefully when James Gray goes to canvass for votes inside Erlestoke, they won't let the twat out :)
Definately no to them voting, bring back the death penalty. I saw on the news today that there are 75,000 in the prison system who should be sent back to their own countries! Lets get shot of them, why should we pay to feed them. Anyone who rapes or kills should not have a right to life. Anyone who steals should have a hand cut off (they will only do it twice) >:(
Mitch9128
08-11-10, 09:49 AM
Definately no to them voting, bring back the death penalty. I saw on the news today that there are 75,000 in the prison system who should be sent back to their own countries! Lets get shot of them, why should we pay to feed them. Anyone who rapes or kills should not have a right to life. Anyone who steals should have a hand cut off (they will only do it twice) >:(
*Shocked* You sound like you're advocating Sharia law there Kevin?
No not at all, but they do have some great ideas on dealing with thieves.
redken1
08-11-10, 06:50 PM
Definately no to them voting, bring back the death penalty. I saw on the news today that there are 75,000 in the prison system who should be sent back to their own countries! Lets get shot of them, why should we pay to feed them. Anyone who rapes or kills should not have a right to life. Anyone who steals should have a hand cut off (they will only do it twice) >:(
Trouble is Kev you can't sew back someone's hand or bring back a life in miscarriage of justice cases.
Prisoners?...
Fack 'em >:(
Definately no to them voting, bring back the death penalty. I saw on the news today that there are 75,000 in the prison system who should be sent back to their own countries! Lets get shot of them, why should we pay to feed them. Anyone who rapes or kills should not have a right to life. Anyone who steals should have a hand cut off (they will only do it twice) >:(
Trouble is Kev you can't sew back someone's hand or bring back a life in miscarriage of justice cases.
You could ship them somewhere and let them stew for a while before doing it. Maybe the Isle of Wight, Lundy or France
Bikermouse
10-11-10, 01:39 PM
I have to be a bit careful with what I say, as those of you who know me well will know that my link with the judicial system is pretty close.....
However, I personally don't think that they should be given the right to vote. They have committed a crime either against society, the Government or another person, no matter how minor the crime may be. Therefore once they enter the Holiday camp with big locked gates, their rights to do this, that, or the other should immediately diminish! In fact, I'd go so far as to say that their rights to a number of other "luxuries" should also fall away, but I'm not prepared to elaborate further.
Bringing back a diet of bread & water, being put to hard labour (clearing roads etc) and punishment in general wouldn't go amiss. In fact, bring back the death penalty or at least when sentencing someone to life, make sure it is LIFE!! If incarceration were not made so cushy there surely would be less repeat offenders.
kj
Bikermouse
11-11-10, 01:56 PM
You're all heart KJ :D
I know! lol :D
Nico_babe
11-11-10, 05:23 PM
Well said KJ ;)
redken1
11-11-10, 05:46 PM
Unfortunately, "The lock em up and throw away the key" mentality just don't work. Our prisons are bursting at the seams.
Bikermouse
11-11-10, 09:23 PM
Our prisons are bursting at the seams.
and wouldn't be if those that have committed the most heinous of crimes were sent to their death!
redken1
10-02-11, 10:31 PM
Parliament voted today against the 'Convention on Human' rights ruling to introduce voting for UK prisoners. This decision will inevitably lead to compensation claims against the government (taxpayer).
I saw a guy on Breakfast TV this morning, an ex-con turned Parole Officer and he was speaking from experience, both personal and from having worked with thousands of cons and he said it's a waste of time, they're not remotely political and couldn't give a stuff about voting, though if some of them hear that they can claim for it they'll be making a fuss... just have to go back over the electoral records for the past few elections I guess and see if any of the claimants actually bothered to turn up on voting day in the past.... ::)
redken1
11-02-11, 12:23 AM
The fact is that this issue has been a festering sore since 2005 and the previous government buried their collective heads in the sand in the hope that it would go away. That said, we are where we are now, and today’s vote in parliament was merely a token gesture of defiance and will not lead to new legislation relating to prisoner’s voting rights. It is clear to me that as a sovereign state we have reached a crossroads with a choice of three paths to follow.
Firstly, the UK government could continue to ignore the ‘Convention on Human’ Rights’ (COHR) ruling and payout millions to prisoners in future compensation claims.
Secondly, give up our membership of the Council of Europe and pull out of the convention (Off course we cannot pick and choose which rulings we adopt).
Thirdly, pass legislation to introduce some form of voting rights for prisoners in accordance with the COHR ruling.
BladeTriple
11-02-11, 06:41 AM
IF WE MUST give prisoners the vote then make it those on short sentences, 12 months or less as this normally ends up at about 6 months or so on time off for good behaviour, about the same length of time served in afghanistan by our forces who even tho they may have a postal vote while on tour probably have more pressing things to worry about than a local vote.
Either that or limit the vote to local council by - elections and the like something that won't make the biggest of impacts on the country , there must be a way of appeasing the ECHR and stopping these people who have 'stayed from the line of righteous living' shall we say from suing the goverment and becoming an even bigger drain on this country !
Squashed_Fly
11-02-11, 07:47 AM
Unfortunately, "The lock em up and throw away the key" mentality just don't work. Our prisons are bursting at the seams.
No they're not. Not at all. There aren't enough rooms for them all, and some have to share, but if we gave them all a 6x4 cell with a blanket and a bucket, we would have plenty of room. Playstations, Xboxes???? Do me a favour.
My next door neighbour is a prison officer. When they want a new tele, they just smash up the current one. Human rights dictates they must have a new one within 24 hours, better than the last. Tell me honestly, would enyone here be worried of going to prison? Aside from the obvious difficulties you would have when released, but I mean the time spent there. I wouldn't. 3 good meals a day, all the xbox live you want and the european government running around after you making sure you have what you want, including the right to vote.
This country is going down the pan fast.
If prison meant 22 hours a day in a cramped cell, no communication, 2 hours exercise a day and the bare basics for food, then I might not want to go in/back. I know it's very 'eastern' but at least out there people are frightened of the consequences of their actions.
This is what a full prison looks like:
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2008/04/10/thai276.jpg
This is a UK prison.....
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00441/news-graphics-2007-_441131a.jpg
(Hizzy here) I feel that if you commit a crime that gets you incarcerated that you have done something that has affected other peoples human rights and civil liberties and therefore you have absolutely no right to vote on what goes on in the outside world, you have forgone many human right by messing up. Lets face it they're enough of a drain on the system being locked up 24/7 and many of them ending up back inside again why the hell should they be allowed to vote while inside?
This has come around by some oxygen theif knowing he can work the system as shown in the press by his flaunting of the system smoking drugs in his cell...
The criminals who go down for rape, murder etc all the more serious crimes want to be glad that we no longer subscribe to capital or corporal punishment, they'd have something to complain about with their human rights then ... @r$eholes
100% :)
Couldnt have put it better myself :)
Actually this hasn't come about by some thief smoking drugs in his cell.
This has come about because a guy who bludgeoned a woman to death challenged the law about losing his right to vote. You won't get any argument from me that he lost his right to vote when he commited his crime, but what about the people who went to jail for refusing to pay the Poll Tax, should they lose their right to vote as well? Someone living below the poverty line (and yes it does happen in this country, quite a lot) steals to feed themselves or their family, should they lose the right to vote as well?
If the threat of death actually worked, then countries where the death penatly was allowed would see zero crime that would end in that punishment, it doesn't work and they don't have zero crime that relates would end in that punishment. I don't want to see the return of the death penalty, or violent punishment, it makes us no better than the people we are locking up, might as well get the clubs out and return to living in caves.
Yes some prisoners should lose their right to vote, but not all, and thats the route we should be taking, not a blanket ban.
Squashed_Fly
11-02-11, 12:04 PM
So are you saying taking another persons property that they have bothered to get off their arses and work for is ok to feed yourself, but not for pleasure?
Sorry - no way. Theft is theft. God knows this government gives enough handouts to those in need. Nobody, ABSOLUTELY NOBODY in this country can claim they can't afford to feed themselves. Those countries where they do that, the people in question can't even afford bread and water. You're telling me there are people here like that? Sorry, no way. Certainly not unless it's of their own doing. Even the homeless can get a cheap and basic meal if they need to, providing they can show they are not 'using'.
Those families with to many mouths to feed should ahve thought of that before they 'had kids to get a flat and benefits' and then spend it all on booze and drugs. Being engaged to a teacher, my eyes have opened up to the so called poverty of these families.
Anybody who says they can't get a job is talking nonsense. What they mean is they can't find work doing what they want. If they are that desperate, Mcdonalds in every town and city is always hiring staff. Maybe if we took some of those jobs that the foreighers are prepared to do, while our council estates (not just those before I get accused of being a snob!) and towns are full of lazy incompetents, it might encourage the illegal immigrants to 'seek alternative accomodation'.
When I was out of work, I took a job as a bin man, worked in fast food restaurants. Anything so that I could hold my head up and say 'I work for my money' and the ONLY time I claimed benefits was in the month between being made redundant and finding somewhere to work as it was right at the start of January.
This country is going down the pan. Waiting until I can afford it, then I'm off to oz where they have the right attitudes and don't live in fear of offending people in the pursuit of what's right and fair.
SF I'm not talking about people who claim to be living in poverty because they can't afford a new X-box for their kids, but to say that no one in this country lives below the poverty line is just absurd. Yup the homeless can get a cheap and basic meal, if they rely on charities, and voluntary organisations, which are all suffering funding cuts as well.
Since being signed back to work I have been offered a few jobs, and had to turn each one of them down. They pay less than I get on benefits, and I struggle on that, when I went to the job centre to ask if there was any help they could offer, I was told nope as I would be earning to much. I've asked at the local supermarkets, fast food restaurants all they have is part time work, and once again I would be worse off.
I would love to go back to work, but what's the point if after the first month I would be £200 down? or the month after that when I would be £400 down, will my landlord be happy about me missing a months rent every 3 months to keep my head above water? The jobs that pay enough, well I've not heard back from most of them, and the ones I have heard back from are not interested, most companies aren't when you have been out of work for a few years due to a health problem, if you can find me a solution to that problem I would love to hear it.
Not everyone who is on benefits with kids and a flat started out that way, I agree that those people who have low incomes or on benefits should have the common sense NOT to start having loads of kids or spend it all on booze or drugs, but to tar everyone with the same 'chav' brush is a little blinkered to say the least.
In my opinion any one convicted of a crime should loose their rights to vote.
Squashed_Fly
11-02-11, 01:02 PM
I would love to go back to work, but what's the point if after the first month I would be £200 down?
The point is, for me anyway (and I had to do exactly that!) that I kept my pride and could say I worked for what I had, even if it was less than benefits. I can live on £15 a week if I need to. That's what Asda smartprice and Tesco value is for.
I don't NEED my motorbike, I don't NEED my tele, I don't NEED most of the things I own that cost money to have or run. I NEED food, water and a warm place to sleep. We have become so used to living with our luxuries, we have forgotten what it's like to ever actually NEED something.
Speak to people who teach, or some of the families that I speak to doing my fostering training etc, or some of the kids my mum fostered. Then you'll know what it's like to need.
You can live easily on basic wage - millions do every day. They just have to forfeit some of lifes little luxuries until they can afford them again.
I'm not pointing any fingers, and am aware my views may be taken as aggressive. No intent to offend. But the other night we were all the pub drinking and eating. If you were really poor Hunar, you couldn't afford to do that.
We, as people, have lost the sense of pride that comes with having a job and working for what you have, no matter how small or no matter how much we'd be better off on benefits. Sorry, that's not for me.
Morticia
11-02-11, 01:02 PM
Personally Chris I think they shouldn't be allowed :(
In my opinion by the nature of how they became prisoners was there choice and therefore they shouldnt have the any rights as far as this goes.
Thats my own personal view and as such should not be taken as an attack on anyone [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
Couldn't have put it better myself.
ChrisJo
11-02-11, 02:03 PM
I would love to go back to work, but what's the point if after the first month I would be £200 down?
The point is, for me anyway (and I had to do exactly that!) that I kept my pride and could say I worked for what I had, even if it was less than benefits. I can live on £15 a week if I need to. That's what Asda smartprice and Tesco value is for.
I don't NEED my motorbike, I don't NEED my tele, I don't NEED most of the things I own that cost money to have or run. I NEED food, water and a warm place to sleep. We have become so used to living with our luxuries, we have forgotten what it's like to ever actually NEED something.
Speak to people who teach, or some of the families that I speak to doing my fostering training etc, or some of the kids my mum fostered. Then you'll know what it's like to need.
You can live easily on basic wage - millions do every day. They just have to forfeit some of lifes little luxuries until they can afford them again.
I'm not pointing any fingers, and am aware my views may be taken as aggressive. No intent to offend. But the other night we were all the pub drinking and eating. If you were really poor Hunar, you couldn't afford to do that.
We, as people, have lost the sense of pride that comes with having a job and working for what you have, no matter how small or no matter how much we'd be better off on benefits. Sorry, that's not for me.
+1 - well put. :)
redken1
11-02-11, 11:40 PM
[quote author=redken1 Unfortunately, "The lock em up and throw away the key" mentality just don't work. Our prisons are bursting at the seams.
No they're not. Not at all. There aren't enough rooms for them all, and some have to share, but if we gave them all a 6x4 cell with a blanket and a bucket, we would have plenty of room. Playstations, Xboxes???? Do me a favour.
SF, I will always stand corrected, but please allow me to offer up the official statistics relating to the UK prison population in an attempt to substantiate the point I was making.
England and Wales have the highest per capita prison population in Western Europe – 148 people per 100,000 which equates to a 112.7 per cent jail occupancy level.
As a matter of interest, the prison rates in the USA are the world’s highest at 724 people per 100,000, in a country where capital punishment exists.
gazzaboy
12-02-11, 05:15 PM
Sod the vote take the TV's and playstations away.
Treated better than the old folk >:(
SF - Sorry for my late reply I had a busy weekend.
I'm glad you had your pride, and I just love the way you seem to use that to judge people who are on benefits as being less important than you, or have I misunderstood that?
I don't disagree that there are people who have loads of kids to get more benefit money, or play the system in other ways, what I am saying is that they are not in the majority, they are certainly not a small minority, but to tar everyone with the same brush is a bit 'daily mail' isn't it?
I have worked pretty much constantly since I left school at 16, in that time I have worked in burger vans, rubbish dumps, cleaning toilets, washing pots and pans in kitchens while being bellowed at by the head chef (they don't like it when you bellow back by the way), fast food delivery, barman (not just at the PB), warehouse and production line, hospital porter, call centers, helpdesks, Network Admin for Oxford Uni and run my own IT business, then I had to watch my business collapse when I became ill, not sure how proud I felt at the time, I think it was more despair than pride to be honest.
Now, according to your pride, I should give up my bike, my computer, my x-box, decent food, and everything else because I am on benefits? I could argue that after seeing over a grand a month (on a couple of occassions over 2 grand) of my wages going to the government in NI and TAX, I am only taking out what I put in, but that's not how it works, I didn't pay TAX as a sort of insurance politcy, I paid TAX so that those less fortunate than myself had the help they need, and so we had street lights, Police, bin collections and all the other services we enjoy because of TAX.
I also apologise if spending a night at the H&C with my friends offends you as a taxpayer, I never said I was poor, or live below the poverty line, but I wouldn't deny the vast majority of people a night out. I had 1 burger with chips and two cups of tea, which I think came to the grand total of about £6.50, hardly pushing the boat out is it, and it's not like I go to the H&C every week, that was my first visit. I do go to the Polebarn every Friday (or as many as I can manage) but I work behind the bar, and the reason for that is twofold, firstly (and the main reason) is that it gives Liam and Tash as much of a night off as possible, and it also gives me a sense of giving something back to the people who basically pay my benefit. I LOVE working behind the bar at the PB on a Friday night, it's the highlight of the week for me, I get a great sense of enjoyment, satisfaction and a fair amount of pride from it, I believe that Liam and Tash also appreciate it. Secondly (and I still feel cheeky for doing it), I realised that I couldn't afford to travel to trowbridge every week and pay for a meal and drinks, but I wanted to spend an evening with my friends, so I asked Liam if he would be happy if I worked behind the bar in exchange for a free meal and free drinks (I'm tee-total, so pretty much a few cups of tea and the occasional coke), and then he and Tash could have the night off (well they still take care of the food, which is probably a good thing, I don't think my cooking skill is anywhere near Tash's), luckily for me he accepted.
I 'make do' with what I get, it's not a lot, but then I don't think it should be, in fact with the cuts I am now having to pay more money to 'top up' my rent as i don't get it all paid for. It was £25 a month, now I have to find £70, I'm not happy about it, will make things very difficult for me, but as the people who pay for me are also facing massive cuts, I'm not complaining about it, we're all in it together, so I don't think it's wrong I take a drop in income as well. I'm fully behind the idea of getting people on benefits to work for the money they get, I don't think they should be made to clean the streets, but they should be made to give something back, especially if they have never put into the kitty, I think they should be made to work for local charities myself, rather than take paid employent away from others. I have been round my local park / play area clearing litter, just a few hours a month nothing major, before being told to stop. Aparently I need a license to carry waste, hi-vis and other safety equipment and simply putting it in one of the bins provided at the park leaves me open to prosecution for fly tipping, unreal isn't it.
Maybe you're right, I should take a low paid job, leave myself between £150 and £300 a month worse off, find myself i the position I can't pay my rent and end up on the street with my stuff in box's and bags, be forced to give up all the suff I worked for, eat crap food, and sit in a bedsit for all my spare time as I can't afford to go out, just to satisfy your point of view. Luckily for me I live in a society where that doesn't happen, and thats where my pride lies, knowing that when I need help it's there for me, and I appreciate that and am thankful for it. Hopefully 2011 will be a better year and all of those rejection letters will stop and someone will offer me a job I can afford to take. What astounds me is that being on benefits is better than being in work for a lot of people, I think that's the major problem.
If my claiming benefits offends you, I will be more than happy to return the 0.001p a year I cost you as a taxpayer, just let me know who to make the cheque payable to, but please don't tar me with the same 'lazy incompetents' brush.
I would love to go back to work, but what's the point if after the first month I would be £200 down?
The point is, for me anyway (and I had to do exactly that!) that I kept my pride and could say I worked for what I had, even if it was less than benefits. I can live on £15 a week if I need to. That's what Asda smartprice and Tesco value is for.
I don't NEED my motorbike, I don't NEED my tele, I don't NEED most of the things I own that cost money to have or run. I NEED food, water and a warm place to sleep. We have become so used to living with our luxuries, we have forgotten what it's like to ever actually NEED something.
Speak to people who teach, or some of the families that I speak to doing my fostering training etc, or some of the kids my mum fostered. Then you'll know what it's like to need.
You can live easily on basic wage - millions do every day. They just have to forfeit some of lifes little luxuries until they can afford them again.
I'm not pointing any fingers, and am aware my views may be taken as aggressive. No intent to offend. But the other night we were all the pub drinking and eating. If you were really poor Hunar, you couldn't afford to do that.
We, as people, have lost the sense of pride that comes with having a job and working for what you have, no matter how small or no matter how much we'd be better off on benefits. Sorry, that's not for me.
+1 - well put. :)
rofl
Squashed_Fly
15-02-11, 04:07 PM
You asked the question, 'what's the point in working if I get less than being on benefits'. I answered it.
I'm not being judgemental. I'm not presuming you are scrounging. Nothing like that. What I said was, I take a sense of pride in knowing I work for my money. I don't earn a high salary, but I work hard for it. That's the point. I don't make assumptions about things, or tar everyone with the same brush. I simply stated my opinion as it applies to me. I've had to claim my self when I was made redundant. But I hated it. And I took whatever job I could get to make sure I was working. I've worked hard for what little I've got but I'm proud to say that I've earnt it myself. I don't think there's anything wrong with having some pride, and it certainly doesn't make a me a judgemental person.
The trouble with forums, is that we all have lives & experiences that no-one else knows about so it's quite easy to take offence at something someone has said, rather than asking them (perhaps privately if it's a contentious issue) why they think that and taking the time to understand their point of view. I like my opinions and thoughts to be challenged as it helps to develop and shape the way I think about things but I don't like to be thought of as a 'snob' or someone who just 'puts everyone in the same boat'.
Apologies if anything I have said has caused any offfence, it certainly was never meant that way.
redken1
15-02-11, 08:06 PM
Hunar, we discussed this very topic (unemployment) at the PB last Friday (during your official break :P).
Every time the greedy capitalist gravy train hits the buffers the right-wing media and right-wing government of the day target the most vulnerable members of society with their vilification. For example, the highest circulating paper (don’t ask me why) The Sun is always quick to publish extensive reports on extreme cases of benefit fraud. In contrast, the paper never appears to give the same degree of coverage to those people who have taken their own lives out of despair of being unemployed.
I have been in the unfortunate position of facing up to redundancy in the past and as a jobseeker actively seeking work I claimed all the benefits I was eligible for and entitled to. My priority at the time was to provide for my family and despite the ‘State’s’ unwavering determination to humiliate me, my pride remained intact.
I wonder if the Bankers (still gambling with billions of taxpayer's dosh) who draw their huge wads of bonus cash feel a sense of pride?
I wonder if the Directors of the Energy giants who screw us for every last penny in their obsessive quest for obscene profits, feel a sense of pride?
I wonder if the members of the Black-liquid-Gold Cartels who hold the world to ransom, feel a sense of pride?
Last, but not least, I wonder if those MP’s who fiddled their expenses, felt a sense of pride?
Get’s down from soap box
pilninggas
15-02-11, 08:29 PM
Blimey, this thread is a bit tense
It's a shame a decent thread about the validity of prisoner voting and the ECHR, got turned into one about benefits. :o
Redken your keyboard must be worn out............ ::)
redken1
15-02-11, 08:39 PM
Blimey, this thread is a bit tense
It's a shame a decent thread about the validity of prisoner voting and the ECHR, got turned into one about benefits. :o
Redken your keyboard must be worn out............ ::)
Some folk love reading, others watch TV, I enjoy writing most evenings.
Keyboard is feeling the strain and I ain't started my letter to the PM yet.
Sorry for wandering of the 'beaten track', but I do feel that the unemployed get a unfair press. Now that you mention it, I suspect that the govenment will introduce some form of voting rights for prisoners - probably for non-violent short-termers. whether such measures will appease the convention, remains to be seen. :-/
redken1
15-02-11, 08:42 PM
Ps Pilninggas - I am not tense - if I was vegetable I would be a cucumber 8-) ;D
pilninggas
15-02-11, 08:45 PM
Blimey, this thread is a bit tense
It's a shame a decent thread about the validity of prisoner voting and the ECHR, got turned into one about benefits. :o
Redken your keyboard must be worn out............ ::)
Some folk love reading, others watch TV, I enjoy writing most evenings.
Keyboard is feeling the strain and I ain't started my letter to the PM yet.
Sorry for wandering of the 'beaten track', but I do feel that the unemployed get a unfair press. Now that you mention it, I suspect that the govenment will introduce some form of voting rights for prisoners - probably for non-violent short-termers. whether such measures will appease the convention, remains to be seen. :-/
Keyboard and Keith Warmington for me, no TV.
Here's a simple solution - Make all prisons a constituancy - let them all vote - they get one MP.
If their MP is worth his/her salt he/she can sort the wheat from the chaffe. If he's not all the other MP's will ignore him/her
I would advise everyone to err on the side of caution when considering the plight of the jobles. The numbers are rising fast, loads of redundancies in the pipeline. Now we have a Tory led government jobs are likely to get harder to find as the jobless figures rise, inflation and interest rates will increase as will the tax burden, except for the well healed of course!
Just a point of interest as the Tories love to claim to be the party of low taxation here is the history of VAT
Introduced by Ted Heath (Tory) in 1973 at 10% (replaced purchase tax of around 6% depending on item classification)
Decreased by Harold Wilson (Labour) in 1974 to 8%
Increased by Maggie Thatcher (Tory) in 1980 to 15%
Increased by John Major (Tory) in 1994 to 17.5%
Increased By Cameraon (Tory) in 2011 to 20%
Come back Harold!
redken1
18-02-11, 07:15 AM
I would advise everyone to err on the side of caution when considering the plight of the jobles. The numbers are rising fast, loads of redundancies in the pipeline. Now we have a Tory led government jobs are likely to get harder to find as the jobless figures rise, inflation and interest rates will increase as will the tax burden, except for the well healed of course!
Just a point of interest as the Tories love to claim to be the party of low taxation here is the history of VAT
Introduced by Ted Heath (Tory) in 1973 at 10% (replaced purchase tax of around 6% depending on item classification)
Decreased by Harold Wilson (Labour) in 1974 to 8%
Increased by Maggie Thatcher (Tory) in 1980 to 15%
Increased by John Major (Tory) in 1994 to 17.5%
Increased By Cameraon (Tory) in 2011 to 20%
Come back Harold!
Two relevant additional points to note JayJay
This week's unemployment figures saw the highest number of jobless in the 16 to 24 age group since records began.
Stating the obvious, but as VAT is not an income based tax it will always hit the poor and low paid the hardest as these groups have the least disposable income.
When Cameron's dismantling of the welfare state kicks in, watch crime figures rise.
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