Increased penalties for Rideout leaders!

[Davey]

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/General-news/2009/November/nov1909-speeding-penalty-for-leading-rideout/

[R1chie]

Wow..... :o

[BB]

Ye Gods! :o I was at the front of about 40 or so on the Five horses - does that make me responsible for everyone ? They could be a mile or more behind! :o :o

BB

[SupeRDel]

Ye Gods! :o I was at the front of about 40 or so on the Five horses - does that make me responsible for everyone ? They could be a mile or more behind! :o :o

BB

Yeap - Did you not know this already. It gets worse. See below

1. Any large group (I cannot remember the exact amount) of riders going on an organised run is supposed to inform the police about the rideout.

We at the aircooled RD club get around this by informing everyone that they are riding alone. The fact that we (130 bikes) all follow the same route and travel at the same time is just a pure coincidence.... ;)

2. A more worrying thing to worry about is the accident liability of any lead rider of a group wotever the size. I saw a recent BMF article written by a top policeman.

Apparently the person that regularly gets hurt in group rides is the tail end charlie. He is normally a bit less experianced and is under pressure to keep up. This may well result in the lead rider being prosecuted for failure to look after the riders behind him. Also the lead rider may face one of those "injury" blame claims from the injured party

[FJ_Biker]

We all know reason behind this it’s just another way of getting more bikers off the road as we are bad for government statistics. Our free(ish) country has less freedoms than we believe.

SupeRDel wrote

1. Any large group (I cannot remember the exact amount) of riders going on an organised run is supposed to inform the police about the rideout.

And when you phone the police to tell them they are not the least bit interested, I stopped telling them about MAG ride outs years ago as they made you feel like you were wasting there time.

[SupeRDel]

Did not say that they would be interested - just said that you were supposed too

[Davey]

I had to advise them of the route, times etc for the gixerjunkies - prob so they could get thier cameras out ready.......not my fault we decided to alter the route and timings last minute :) :D

[Thorkill_The_Tall]

I've seen this discussed elsewhere.

One idea was to deny that you were actually part of a group of riders.
I mean, would they prosecute the motorist at the head of a line of cars?

[Davey]

I've seen a post from one of the other riders! Not as unfair as it seems so could be safer!

One of the lads involved just added this to the original thread...

Being one of the trio involved, all is not as clear as made out. Video evidence was very clear of all 3 bikes involved. I feel ken did not help himself in any way by taunting the police rider on various websites as he was only doing his job. We had also been followed for several miles and was very clear we were together as a group. The whole situation felt a bit dirty as it was an unmarked police r1 but we all commited the speeding offence, I would like to know what tree he picked the 85mph out of, as i and the other riders know we ALL did comitt the same offence. Myself pleaded guilty to the offence even thou i was rider number 2 because i knew i had broke the law and it is cheaper and easier to throw your hands up and say yes i did it! I received the same penalty points as Ken but my fine was sub £300 pounds and no solicitor fees. All without personal inconvience.

[igbell]

What a bunch of monkeys, I tell you what is this free world coming too???

[Hunar]

Ermmmmmmm.......................................

Dabz is it too late to change my role to year book editor?

[Davey]

Ermmmmmmm.......................................

Dabz is it too late to change my role to year book editor?



http://alyxkottmeier.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/prisoner.jpg

[Karl]

Does anyone know what the number is to inform the police? I think everyone in the country should inform the police of rideouts and routes on a certain day. I think the whole system would break down, no other person would be able to get through. It would prove this is another stupid law in this country which is strangling itself in red tape.

[Dabz]

all the more reason to keep our rides under control :)

[Geordie Stu]

How can they prove your the lead bike? Or rding as a group. Here's a couple of situations

Riding as a large group, you get split up due to traffic & lights..etc then the lead bike may be part of a smaller group in the larger group.

Riding on your own & another bike follows you for a period of time then how can they prove your riding as a group.

Group of riders pass a solo rider & the solo rider gets caught speeding, again how can they prove he/she is part of that group.

Car divers (Boy racers) they ride in groups are they going to do the same to them (I think not) they have to prove it

[Bonnielass]

I can't see a problem, if everyone rides within the speed limit during rideouts no one is going to get caught speeding. I personally think there's a time and place for going over the speed limit and it's not on a rideout. I think we all appreciate Hunar very much for organising our rides and we shouldn't put him in jeopardy, or any one else who is good enough to organise a ride.

[Davey]

Guess you didn't read the other bit I posted where it was obvious they were a group and that they were all awared the same but lead rider took it upon himself to argue the case and increased punishment ::)

So you never speed then Bonnielass or do something you shouldn't - you angel! ;) As your the only one I know!

Maybe it'll make rideout organisers think a bit more when they dissapear off at just over the speed limit that the people behind are having to go faster to keep as a 'group' for a group rideout - not everyone for themselves I'll see you at the junction to tur or when we get there :D

Since I changed to supermotos I have seen a different attitude to rideing in groups (and not meant negative in any way to how they are run) but they are always close by, can see each other and know what each other are doing - never need to use marker system as are close enough to see [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

[Geordie Stu]

Guess you didn't read the other bit I posted where it was obvious they were a group and that they were all awared the same but lead rider took it upon himself to argue the case and increased punishment

I did read it, :-? but if a solo rider gets caught up in a group & decides to speed then how can they prove he is part of that group. Or is it guilty by association?

[Jon_W]

Frankly, you must be doing somthing seriously wrong in the first place to attract police attention. I have been on countless rideouts and never even turned the head of a copper.

The only time one has ever taken any interest was when a guy on a Ninga (I think) threw himself at the scenery in Devon and we got caught up in the resulting traffic jam. The copper asked our lead where we were going and told us to take it steady as the roads were very slippery.

I have also been on rides where the people in front are not the lead. They have gone for a blast and left the group behind... how do you see that one? You can't unless you treat each rider as an individual.

The short is that I think the real risk is minimal. As long as the group is sensible and don't ride like muppets then all will be ok. If there is a muppet element then the lead should call the ride off. It comes down to trusting the people you are with to respect others.

[Davey]

but if a solo rider gets caught up in a group & decides to speed then how can they prove he is part of that group. Or is it guilty by association?



I don't know I'm neither a magistrate or police officer - but there will be ways to prove it - take the case of the guy who died last year part of the T W A T group - tha was proven by cctv (did help with the hi-vis jackets too!) Also by club stickers, arm bands etc etc

Also how often are rideouts posted on forums then piccys to follow etc - the police aren't dumb and anyway if you and your are not doing anything wrong you've nothing to worry about!

As you said you read it but happened to miss the key points regarding why charged as a group - just as a reminder.......

Video evidence was very clear of all 3 bikes involved.

We had also been followed for several miles and was very clear we were together as a group.

we ALL did comitt the same offence.

Now I'm bored of this and if anyone gets caught and know they've been doing whatever either accept the punishment or get a good solicitor and could possibly cost you more

[Geordie Stu]

Least we agree on something DON'T SPEED NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT.

Like wise bored

[Dabz]

WB rides always make sure people are riding within their comfort zones anyway, and we deliberately don't set out to blast round the country. We often have 125 riders with us and we've worked very hard to make sure the rides are fun for everyone with danger and stupidity kept to a minimum.

If people want to speed or ride like idiots that's up to them, but it's not welcome on a WB organised ride and won't be invited on future rides. Our aim is to get a group of people to a certain place as safely and in the most enjoyable way possible.

Simples :) Plus, who'd want to get on the wrong side of Hunar? :o [smiley=happy.gif]

[Geordie Stu]

Hope this helps...!!!

The brief answer is that due to a crown court decision, the case can be stated in future cases. Therefore if the same circumstances occurred within Wiltshire then a similar prosecution could be mounted.

There is no policy in place within Wiltshire that would automatically place the lead rider as being responsible for following riders, however, if a rider was inappropriately 'leading' riders then this may be considered as an aggravating factor to an offence. If the rider was leading dangerously, then this could be an offence in itself.

Each case would be examined individually. I can not answer for specific CPS involvement but refer to how the Police may recommend a prosecution of this nature.

Kind regards

Joe Saunders
A/Insp 2206
Road Policing Unit

[Scotty]

A new petition against the ruling and precedent:

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Lead-Biker-Fined/

Just signed 8-)
Strangely the petition page gives a signing deadline of 24th November, but it just allowed me to sign up and my name's at the foot of the list of signatories.... :-?

[Ducatista]

gives a signing deadline of 24th November

That's 2010 :)

[Scotty]

D'Oh! ::)

[Roll_on]

Think we all need to sign this. I bet Mag are doing their best to squash it not had a chance to check yet.

[Dabz]

signed :)

[Ducatista]

I think there is no chance of this petition succeeding because the independence of our judicial system from political interference is an important aspect of our legal system.
However I have signed it because I do think the issue needs to be looked into.
I hope the decision gets appealed.

[Hazel-nut]

signed-dont want wb ride-outs ruined before i even get to go on 1 :P

[Geordie Stu]

signed-dont want wb ride-outs ruined before i even get to go on 1 :P

Can see that happening we'll keep going Im sure [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

[Ducatista]

It should not be an issue for WB or any group that uses the marker system.
There is no pressure from the group or from the ride leader to keep up because there are markers in place, so everyone can ride at their own pace.

[igbell]

did that thing of putting pen to paper....