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NoYou
23-07-11, 06:18 PM
I've just gone up the a338 and back and once more... its a good road! Anyway on my way up it the first time I get stuck behind a long line of cars all doing 40 mph! Yippeedoo! As I get the the front on the queue I'm at the roundabout at the end of the road -.-
I turn arround and head back the other way about 3 corners down the road ... a big queue of cars going about 40 mph... sigh! Right 3rd time lucky turn arround head back down it, low and behold there's a long queue of cars all doing 40 mph!
At which point I pull into a side road and wait until nothing has passed me for a few mins then carry on, which results in a good run finaly!
Now I'm aware the road isn't a racetrack and not everybody wants to go quickly but this is a 60 limit road with one car doing 40 holding up a good 20-30 other cars and this happened 3 times on the trot.
"You're on a bike, just zip past one car at a time" I hear you cry! Yes well I would if every car was so far up the other cars arse that you could barely fit a piece of paper between them much less a bike.
Therefore I've decided that old people and people who drive slowly need to be banned or shot on sight! ;D (Disclaimer: that was a joke and should not be taken as a literal statement or as my opinion of how this huge annoyance should be solved) :D

wiggy
23-07-11, 08:20 PM
Ithink its more there trying to save fuel rather than just being slow , near £8 a gallon i dont blame them , i know its anoying and ruins our fun , times are hard for everyone and saveing a few quid doing 10 mph less can make all the differance to someone.night or early mornings first light thats the time to wind the bike on no one about air,s normaly calm and you can ride like a nutter as plod is still asleep . :D

Rossio
23-07-11, 08:57 PM
but if they were up to speed they would be overtaking you :D

YMFB
23-07-11, 09:36 PM
IMO, The A338 is a crap road, for just that reason, the A36 is almost as bad.

Last weekend I rode on ROSPA rideout to weston, porlock, lynmouth then across Exmoor to Taunton back up the 303 to Salisbury. 250 miles of heaven, except the rain ;D

YMFB
23-07-11, 09:39 PM
Mind you its necessary to qulify, which section of the A338 your describing. To me its crap from bournemouth to marlborough

NoYou
23-07-11, 09:39 PM
IMO, The A338 is a crap road, for just that reason, the A36 is almost as bad.

Last weekend I rode on ROSPA rideout to weston, porlock, lynmouth then across Exmoor to Taunton back up the 303 to Salisbury. 250 miles of heaven, except the rain ;D
Cool stuff, will have a look at it only reason I like the 338 is coz its out my front door xD and I'm talking about the bit from salisbury to M4 junction thingy roundabout not a hugely long bit of road but... meh

Nooj
25-07-11, 08:40 PM
Shefford to Wantage is the best bit, but it's over far too soon. And some 'tard in the council has seen fit to declare it all a 50mph limit! Same with the B4494, stupid 50 limits have sprung up for no good reason that I can see reason whatsoever.

I did read somewhere that 50 limit roads don't need the same legal minimum maintenance as 60 limit roads, so once again it'll be to do with penny pinching rather than anyone's safety.

I don't mind people crawling along at 40, so long as they pull over occasionally and let the mile long queue of furious motorists they've been holding up for the last hour go past.

The 40MPH muppets seem to fall into two camps, there's the self righteous old rich twats that consider anything over 40 terrifyingly dangerous, so they will sit and make sure everyone else has to do the speed they've decided is safe, and they are always correct because they have more money than you, they have friends in the council and everbody else on the road is a dangerous idiot.

The other ones don't seem to have any particular age or social level in common, but always exhibit the same idiotic driving habits. They have two main buttons in their car; Start and Stop. They push Start and proceed at 40mph for their entire journey, regardless of road conditions, hazards, urban speed limits and safety. Once they reach their destination, they press the Stop button.

These people also have no idea of lane discipline and absolutely zero awareness of anything that's going on around them. They do have some other levers and buttons in their cars, but they're not important. Sometimes lights will come on and off but they don't know why. Other road users are always honking their horns and driving erratically around them, again they don't know why and therefore assume everybody else on the road is a dangerous idiot.

redken1
25-07-11, 08:45 PM
Frustrating when I'm in the van but, not an issue on the bike - hence hate driving the van and love to break free from the shackles on the bike. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Col
25-07-11, 08:49 PM
They represent a challenge to get by in one piece for sure---plenty have copped it trying :(

50 :-? thought that was an advised minimum :D

Mark_Able
25-07-11, 09:50 PM
It's cos they can't drive properly. I can't stand anyone who doesn't take a moment to think how their driving has an impact on other road users. Tractor drivers who NEVER pull over. Caravanners who NEVER pull over. Old farts who think driving is wonderful, because the roads are so empty... in front of them (5 mile convoy behind). I'm moving to the Scottish Highlands, or Canada, or New Zealand. Anywhere where it's quiet enough to enjoy the roads... [smiley=happy.gif]

Jon_W
26-07-11, 07:44 AM
Ohh... that make me boil too.... Is unnessisary and inconcidorate (sorry about the spelling). The one that really get me is when you pull out to overtake and they then decide to boot it.... arrrgggghhhh.... >:(

Kevinb
26-07-11, 08:55 AM
It's cyclists that get my goat. They are meant to be GREEN but cause more polution than my 4x4. Querues of cars behind them that then have to accelerate past them when they can.
They are abusive to other road users, pay no tax and don't bother with stop signals/traffic lights >:(

Jon_W
26-07-11, 09:40 AM
It's cyclists that get my goat. They are meant to be GREEN but cause more polution than my 4x4. Querues of cars behind them that then have to accelerate past them when they can.
They are abusive to other road users, pay no tax and don't bother with stop signals/traffic lights >:(

I must say that is a very harsh judgement on all cyclists. Most of us DO obey road signals and the highway code, and only get abusive when either cut up, driven off the road or abused by to**ers in cars.

It is a fact that the average cyclist produces around 0.4 horse power.... so our limited speed is not choice but the limit of our human bodies. Car drivers with 100+ horsepower need to realise this.

I would respectfully suggest that you try cycling on the roads before making such statements.

NoYou
26-07-11, 10:07 AM
Ithink its more there trying to save fuel rather than just being slow , near £8 a gallon i dont blame them , i know its anoying and ruins our fun , times are hard for everyone and saveing a few quid doing 10 mph less can make all the differance to someone.night or early mornings first light thats the time to wind the bike on no one about air,s normaly calm and you can ride like a nutter as plod is still asleep . :D
Might I suggest a bus?! :D getting past a bus is easy get past 400 cars held up by one driver who is oblivious to everything arround him is not!

But being serious somthing needs to be done about old people! They're a danger to everyone on the roads! Had 3 almost pull out on me on the Sunday ride, only stopping because I started flashing/honking and had a few others trundleing along at 40 drifting arround their lane because they could barely see over the steering wheel! Jaydee and me almost ran into the back of one because they suddenly realised they were turning off at the last minute and breaked so hard an F1 driver would have been proud of the stopping distance! They don't seem to be aware of anyone else on the road and half of them are blind, IMHO you should have to retake your test at 60 and then retake it every 5-10 years after that. My Grandma has had 3 accidents and about 4 speeding tickets in the last couple of years she is genuinely dangerous, she's had to go on a "speed awareness" but no eye test or hazard perception, she's over 80 for christ sake!

pluggedinpete
26-07-11, 10:12 AM
Plus one for that Jon, i only get angry at other road users when i'm out cycling because ive been cut up, or passed to close, or put in danger some other way.... What i would like to see is the return of the cycling proficency test, particularly for adults.... Many people who moan at me about cyclists (often not realising what they're saying mind you) are people who havent been on a bike for years! If some of them had spent some time on the road on a bike, then they might not be so quick to moan (not getting at you Kevinb, I'm generalising!). Most cyclists are also drivers or bikers anyway, so we do pay road tax, and while we're on the point, the road tax goes into general taxation so we ALL pay for the roads in some way or other! Something else that would be benificial ould be forcing new drivers to do a CBT before even being allowed to touch a car.

All that being said..... Just as the general standard of driving sucks at the moment, the general standard of cycling is simlarly poor.... And im not just talking about not signalling and jumping red lights... My big bug bear is cycling on the pavement..... Can understand young kiddies, but there are FAR too many adults riding around on pavements, or riding against the traffic, often without thinking about it. So, no, cyclists are FAR from perfect.

I got 'beeped' at in westbury sunday morning by a chap in Laguna, despite the fact all i was doing wrong was using the primary riding postion coming into the roundabout on Warminster road just past the peugeot dealer (going back toward trowbridge)... I guess he thought i wasnt entitiled to be innthe middle of the lane at a roundabout (which i am)... :-/

At the end of the day, the roads are crowded, people are only human, and all we need is a little more patience!

Scaredy_Cat
26-07-11, 10:13 AM
Ithink its more there trying to save fuel rather than just being slow , near £8 a gallon i dont blame them , i know its anoying and ruins our fun , times are hard for everyone and saveing a few quid doing 10 mph less can make all the differance to someone.night or early mornings first light thats the time to wind the bike on no one about air,s normaly calm and you can ride like a nutter as plod is still asleep . :D

I thought the most efficient speed for fuel consumption was around 55mph :-?

Kevinb
26-07-11, 01:09 PM
It's cyclists that get my goat. They are meant to be GREEN but cause more polution than my 4x4. Querues of cars behind them that then have to accelerate past them when they can.
They are abusive to other road users, pay no tax and don't bother with stop signals/traffic lights >:(

I must say that is a very harsh judgement on all cyclists. Most of us DO obey road signals and the highway code, and only get abusive when either cut up, driven off the road or abused by to**ers in cars.

It is a fact that the average cyclist produces around 0.4 horse power.... so our limited speed is not choice but the limit of our human bodies. Car drivers with 100+ horsepower need to realise this.

I would respectfully suggest that you try cycling on the roads before making such statements.

I have no interest in being on two wheels without an engine. One is because it is difficult holding a cigarette whilst cycling and two, with me being a rather large build it would look like my arse was eating the bike ;D

igbell
26-07-11, 01:58 PM
I say we should bike roads and car roads...

NoYou
26-07-11, 02:00 PM
I say we should bike roads and car roads...
or make the WHOLE of england a 1 way system so you have a bike lane and a car lane! I'm liking that idea! :p

pluggedinpete
26-07-11, 02:54 PM
Yep, as long as ours is 50 ft wide and theirs is 10 feet.... with sleeping policemen and lots of other similar traffic calming measures...

;)

Jon_W
26-07-11, 02:54 PM
I say we should bike roads and car roads...
+1

redken1
26-07-11, 06:50 PM
I canít understand why our roads are such a dangerous place these days? Some Bikers appear to blame all other road users including cyclists for causing havoc on the roads. Some car drivers, lorry drivers and cyclists appear to do likewise.

Call me fat, call me short, insult me in any way you like but, never criticise my driving/riding ability. ::)

Dabz
27-07-11, 08:29 AM
volume of traffic I suspect...

Kevinb
27-07-11, 08:55 AM
It's been great this week with the schools off. I know some people have to drive children to school. My daughter lives in Melksham and the schools in Holt and has no choice.
Before anyone says anything about going to school in Melksham, Holt is an excellent primary school and they used to live there.

Dabz
27-07-11, 09:02 AM
yeh the traffic is brilliant this week - my commute to Bath is a lot easier and up to a third quicker :D

Jon_W
27-07-11, 10:27 AM
Haven't noticed any difference in Bath..... I guess I travel outside school hours???

Dabz
27-07-11, 11:15 AM
hmm weird - it's like a different city for me, and our guys at work are loving it too (they drive round the city most of the day)

Jon_W
27-07-11, 11:18 AM
Sheet Ice isn't exactly the most abrasive of surfaces though Dabz!!!

redken1
27-07-11, 05:20 PM
volume of traffic I suspect...

You are right James - too many fish in too small a pond and unfortunately, according to predictions the pond will be stocked with plenty more fish in the future.

NoYou
27-07-11, 05:22 PM
volume of traffic I suspect...

You are right James - too many fish in too small a pond and unfortunately, according to predictions the pond will be stocked with plenty more fish in the future.
Yea lots more brain damaged fish!

Col
28-07-11, 12:38 AM
Gawd help us all ::)

Snowy
28-07-11, 12:07 PM
In reference to the ageist comments, in my experience, and therefore in my opinion, there is no one age group worse than any other in terms of their danger to others on the road. It's just a different set of limitations. Yes, older people can drive slower (more cautiously maybe) than others in a particular speed limit, but that is a maximum limit not a compulsory speed you have to do. Why do we as bikers advise other bikers not to stray out of their comfort zone, yet get mad at four wheel drivers who effectively are doing the same thing? At any age. And yes, eyesight deteriorates with age, but that can be counteracted by giving more time for reactions and that is where 40 years of experience on the roads can be a whole load more effective than 20/20 vision. Of course it's frustrating being behind a load of cars with double whites, but thats part of sharing the tarmac with others. Live and let live.

Again, in my experience, and recognising the controversial nature of saying this on a bike forum, I feel more at personal risk from other motorcyclists than I ever have from older drivers. Usually it's "too close" and/or "too fast". We all do it sometimes, but lets be honest with ourselves and not blame others for our own actions. If you end up rear ending a car because they do a hard braking manouvere (for whatever reason) who do you really think is at fault?

Roxy
28-07-11, 12:10 PM
Again, in my experience, and recognising the controversial nature of saying this on a bike forum, I feel more at personal risk from other motorcyclists than I ever have from older drivers. Usually it's "too close" and/or "too fast".

::) I'll remember that next time I'm hooning down a welsh mountain towards the rear end of the GS!!! ;) ;) ;) ;D ;D

Roxy xx :-*

Snowy
28-07-11, 12:33 PM
Again, in my experience, and recognising the controversial nature of saying this on a bike forum, I feel more at personal risk from other motorcyclists than I ever have from older drivers. Usually it's "too close" and/or "too fast".

::) I'll remember that next time I'm hooning down a welsh mountain towards the rear end of the GS!!! ;) ;) ;) ;D ;D

Roxy xx :-*

I probably wouldn't even feel a little Ars6 hitting the GS panniers - it takes another GS to knock over a GS ;D ;D.

Plus I always keep an eye out for you knowing you will shortly be appearing in my mirrors ;D

Jon_W
28-07-11, 01:26 PM
volume of traffic I suspect...

You are right James - too many fish in too small a pond and unfortunately, according to predictions the pond will be stocked with plenty more fish in the future.
Yea lots more brain damaged fish!

Found another one of them!!!!

As I pulled off of the roundabout at North bradley to head towards west wilts trading estate, I noticed a car behind me. Now, on the Cub I only do about 40 - 45mph so I pulled over to indicate for him to pass, he sits behind me. No probs! Just start to pull over to the right hand side and signal right for the roundabout and he comes screaming past, just missing me and swerving back in front to avoid the traffic island at the roundabout. His mate is hanging out the window giving me a filth look.... so he got the universal agincout hand symbol for his troubles!!!!!

Feking chavs! A bloody menace!

Vee4 Gaz
28-07-11, 02:59 PM
You have started something here George.....

It does make you wonder why all road user are not tested for "fitness to drive" If you hold a driving license you should be re-accessed every so often because we all get bad habits and our eyesight and reactions starts to fail with age.
How many of you have read the latest version of the Highway code since passing your test??

If all drivers/riders were tested every 5 years say then I'm sure driving habits would improve??

As for cyclist riding on the pavements I think on some roads it makes sense? Empty pavement or narrow busy A road?? No contest in my mind.



NoYou
28-07-11, 03:27 PM
In reference to the ageist comments, in my experience, and therefore in my opinion, there is no one age group worse than any other in terms of their danger to others on the road. It's just a different set of limitations. Yes, older people can drive slower (more cautiously maybe) than others in a particular speed limit, but that is a maximum limit not a compulsory speed you have to do. Why do we as bikers advise other bikers not to stray out of their comfort zone, yet get mad at four wheel drivers who effectively are doing the same thing? At any age. And yes, eyesight deteriorates with age, but that can be counteracted by giving more time for reactions and that is where 40 years of experience on the roads can be a whole load more effective than 20/20 vision. Of course it's frustrating being behind a load of cars with double whites, but thats part of sharing the tarmac with others. Live and let live.

Again, in my experience, and recognising the controversial nature of saying this on a bike forum, I feel more at personal risk from other motorcyclists than I ever have from older drivers. Usually it's "too close" and/or "too fast". We all do it sometimes, but lets be honest with ourselves and not blame others for our own actions. If you end up rear ending a car because they do a hard braking manouvere (for whatever reason) who do you really think is at fault?


I'm not putting all elderly people together here there are pleanty of older people who are perfectly fine, but when one persons limitations inconvenience 30+ other road users it gets silly, I'm not necissarily saying throw them off the road but they need to start taking into consideration other road users. Even if they pulled over every now and again to let the hordes of people behind past. I know its not ONLY older people and I know its not ALL old people but a majority I see ARE older people.
It also wouldn't bother me if they adjusted their speed for the road conditions but they don't! They go 40 if they're on a narrow twisty b road full of blind bends and whatnot or if they're on an arrow straight bit of road without even a hint of a corner. Yes everyone has different limitations and will go at a different pace, however taking your comment about telling riders not to go faster than they feel comfortable, yes that's right but you will generaly find that if said peoples limitations are 40 mph they will be aware of the queue of people behind them and try to let them past whenever possible!
I'm not saying these people need kicking off the road, twas a joke, I just think they need to be made aware of the effect they have on other people and be tested in some way to ensure they aren't a danger to other road users!
Maybe have a mod1 type test that has to be taken every 5 years after passing your test with some basic manouvers, a reaction test and an eye sight test? It would take 20 mins and mean people who are unfit to drive, elderly and otherwise, would be off the roads!
Another example of somone unfit to drive, I was up at tesco on s`hampton road yesterday and as I was leaving an old boy in a fairly new astra reversed out of a parking bay into a lamp post and then drove forward mounting a curb before driving off as if nothing had happened! Now you tell me that he will be able to react quickly enough to stop if I come round a corner while he's pulling out of his driveway! That is the kind of thing that scares me!
Also fair point about following cars too closely but we would have had to break pretty damn hard even if we were following the H`way code to the letter and just for turning into a side road it was a bit extreme!

Snowy
28-07-11, 04:02 PM
In reference to the ageist comments, in my experience, and therefore in my opinion, there is no one age group worse than any other in terms of their danger to others on the road. It's just a different set of limitations. Yes, older people can drive slower (more cautiously maybe) than others in a particular speed limit, but that is a maximum limit not a compulsory speed you have to do. Why do we as bikers advise other bikers not to stray out of their comfort zone, yet get mad at four wheel drivers who effectively are doing the same thing? At any age. And yes, eyesight deteriorates with age, but that can be counteracted by giving more time for reactions and that is where 40 years of experience on the roads can be a whole load more effective than 20/20 vision. Of course it's frustrating being behind a load of cars with double whites, but thats part of sharing the tarmac with others. Live and let live.

Again, in my experience, and recognising the controversial nature of saying this on a bike forum, I feel more at personal risk from other motorcyclists than I ever have from older drivers. Usually it's "too close" and/or "too fast". We all do it sometimes, but lets be honest with ourselves and not blame others for our own actions. If you end up rear ending a car because they do a hard braking manouvere (for whatever reason) who do you really think is at fault?


I'm not putting all elderly people together here there are pleanty of older people who are perfectly fine, but when one persons limitations inconvenience 30+ other road users it gets silly, I'm not necissarily saying throw them off the road but they need to start taking into consideration other road users. Even if they pulled over every now and again to let the hordes of people behind past. I know its not ONLY older people and I know its not ALL old people but a majority I see ARE older people.
It also wouldn't bother me if they adjusted their speed for the road conditions but they don't! They go 40 if they're on a narrow twisty b road full of blind bends and whatnot or if they're on an arrow straight bit of road without even a hint of a corner. Yes everyone has different limitations and will go at a different pace, however taking your comment about telling riders not to go faster than they feel comfortable, yes that's right but you will generaly find that if said peoples limitations are 40 mph they will be aware of the queue of people behind them and try to let them past whenever possible!
I'm not saying these people need kicking off the road, twas a joke, I just think they need to be made aware of the effect they have on other people and be tested in some way to ensure they aren't a danger to other road users!
Maybe have a mod1 type test that has to be taken every 5 years after passing your test with some basic manouvers, a reaction test and an eye sight test? It would take 20 mins and mean people who are unfit to drive, elderly and otherwise, would be off the roads!
Another example of somone unfit to drive, I was up at tesco on s`hampton road yesterday and as I was leaving an old boy in a fairly new astra reversed out of a parking bay into a lamp post and then drove forward mounting a curb before driving off as if nothing had happened! Now you tell me that he will be able to react quickly enough to stop if I come round a corner while he's pulling out of his driveway! That is the kind of thing that scares me!
Also fair point about following cars too closely but we would have had to break pretty damn hard even if we were following the H`way code to the letter and just for turning into a side road it was a bit extreme!


I know you didn't mean ALL old people - I don't think I suggested that you did. What I am saying is that there are bad and inconsiderate drivers/riders in all age groups. I agree that in your scenario of the old man's exploits in the car park that was bad driving to say the least. But so was the young guy in a Corsa who overtook me the other week in a 30 mph limit doing maybe 60 or so just before a school crossing.

My experience I guess is just different from yours. For every one of your old guys in a carpark, I could recount 10 times the number of younger drivers I have described. I would also add that in my opinion, the older drivers are likely to more frustrating to other road users but they are also unlikely to be the ones that drive recklessly by overtaking at 60 in a 30 whilst kids are crossing the road.

I have also been related by marriage to an elderly driver who should never have been allowed on the roads in the first place, having never even taken a test. So I also do agree with eyesight tests and maybe refresher training etc etc at any age if its necessary.

Rossio
28-07-11, 05:37 PM
It's cyclists that get my goat. They are meant to be GREEN but cause more polution than my 4x4. Querues of cars behind them that then have to accelerate past them when they can.
They are abusive to other road users, pay no tax and don't bother with stop signals/traffic lights >:(

HORSES really grind my gears!(family guy) sh t where ever they want, its concidered your duty to wait/slowdown/stop for them.... and then if your lucky they might crack their face to smile! keep them on the track or behind the hounds i say!

redken1
28-07-11, 07:37 PM
With respect, horses and cyclists were using the roads hundreds of years before the combustion engine was invented.

With regards to re-testing every 5 years - No No No more stealth taxes for the poor. >:(

PSSSSD
28-07-11, 07:55 PM
Some great discussion going on, I love Nooj's "two types" comments - utterly perfect!!

Julie_S
28-07-11, 10:38 PM
What I can't fathom with these ridiculously slow drivers is the fact that they are so obviously going slow (by they way grand dad, do you have to take that blasted trip at 8.30 in the morning during the rush hour? doubt it) to save fuel and hence money..but they have always got some horrid little brand new or nearly new Korean or Eastern European built car which they have sold a perfectly good older car in order to buy. Now, working in accounts I know that it would take 10 years or so to recoup that saved fuel cost vs initial outlay on new car - keep the old Rover/Honda Astra or whatever and keep up to speed ! Rant over

As for poor driving standards, clutch cable snapped on my rover 25 tonight leaving it stranded in the outside lane of a set of traffic lights (by subway in Melksham, if it was in your way sorry, if you're one of the people I'm about to mention = muppet) I, along with my dog abandoned the car and left the hazzards on, the jaunty angle I'd left it in the road along with the fact it was EMPTY and had a tall traffic cone placed 1/5 - 2 cars behind it in the road I thought would be enough for others to come to the conclusion that is was both broken down and not going anywhere... Wrong. In the 15 mins it took Mike to mobilise the recovery effort 3 cars got around the cone and tucked themselves in behind my car much to the amusement of the more savvy drivers. 2 Drivers got behind and waited for my car to move away, 1 missing an entire change of lights. One of those little Mitsubishi lorries squeezed in behind, couldn't get out so mounted the concrete apron next to my car and drove around it and across in front of the traffic coming from Chippenham oblivious to the fact that a mere road cone would not stop/tip over his lorry if he just reversed. Sort of shook my faith in my fellow road users

Morticia
29-07-11, 02:16 PM
I use the 338 to go to Steve's, and, like you, get mighty annoyed about it and always have a good old moan when I get to camp.

Nooj
02-08-11, 10:56 PM
They were out in force today, all elderly I'm afraid to say. Got stuck behind a string of vehicles caused by one doddery old fool crawling along at 37 in a 60 limit on the A361. And another one was holding up HGV's on a long straight B road! If driving's that scary... don't do it!

Swanny
04-08-11, 09:17 AM
Another vote for the 5 year test.
Horses are designed to use grass not tarmac.
Cyclists should use the empty pavements.
Mothers should have a separate none accessible while driving compartment for their kids.
Middle lane hoggers on the motorway really piss me off.
:)


Anyone notice that the ones at the front of the chain usually have a Panama hat on the back shelf??

NoYou
04-08-11, 11:31 AM
I think we need a new party! The BBP, British Biker Party!