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Trev
12-02-12, 04:51 PM
My first ride out this morning with IAM instructor as I, hopefully, progress towards taking the IAM motorcycle test in a few months.
Bloody cold and a tad slippery in places but an enjoyable and, for me at least, different ride out. Nigel, my designated instructor, is a fully signed up member of the BMW dayglo jacket riders union and has a little different outlook on biking than I've been exposed to but then that's the whole idea.
After 30 years + of riding I've already this morning picked up a couple of things to improve, no doubt a whole heap more over the coming months. Definitely gonna need to dust off my copy of the highway code ;D

Any other IAM 'trainees' in WB land going through the process at the moment? I'd be interested to hear your take on the training.

mdukx1t
12-02-12, 05:26 PM
well - done my test a few years ago - on my pre test obs - was told to quicken up on my overtakes - so on my test done just that ! result - was failed for speeding ! took test again - same copper same route - i said ok today i will not break speed limit - he said i understand no prob - got back - passed good ride - de brief guess what ! would have liked to see swifter overtakes - i just smiled was polite and thought yeah ! you want the bit of paper then you gotta jump a few hoops ! been on i a m ride outs since - lots of different styles pace etc - may be use it as a base line for yr own style pace etc etc

Nokesy
12-02-12, 06:38 PM
I'll be keeping a keen eye on this thread as going to start mine when it's warmer :)

Dabz
12-02-12, 07:57 PM
I've been wanting to do mine for a few years but always struggle to find the time :/

Sapphire
12-02-12, 08:22 PM
I'm about to start mine... my first observed ride is in a few weeks time!!

Simmsy
13-02-12, 12:50 AM
My new year's resolution this year is to actually get around to taking my IAM test :-? I actually started my training in 2010, but for various reasons last year (2011) I kept losing momentum and the whole process has been dragged out. I've reached the stage whereas I am about to book my pre-test check ride, so I just need to knuckle down and get focussed ... it would be a shame to get so far and not at least attempt the test ... making good progress is all part of the course ;)

There is no doubt that the IAM training has helped me improve my riding ... especially since I learnt (self taught) to ride a motorbike in the 80's before there was any formal training widely available. I am ashamed to own up to having contributed over the years to the statistics which have since led to the introduction of CBT, mod 1 and mod 2 bike test, etc ... :-[ Even though I haven't "officially" finished the course yet, using the training and knowledge that I have gained I won't be going back to my "old" riding style :)

My experience are also similar to flat2v2, in as far as when started my training I was marked down after my observed rides because I was sometimes too cautious and didn't take advantage of the flexibility / moveability of a motorbike to attempt safe overtakes ... the resulting consequences of my "self taught style" :o As my training progressed I then started to lose points for "general constraint". I was making progress but sometimes at the expense of safe and courteous riding, and I continue to learn that there is "fine balance" to achieving a safe progressive ride.

Also, one of my colleagues at work is a senior observer in the Cheltenham group and following a few ride outs after work he has made different observations, so I guess that different observers & examiners are looking out for different things :-/

Those people who have passed the advance test have certainly jumped through many hoops ::)

Geordie Stu
13-02-12, 09:41 AM
Did mine 4 years ago. Well worth it [smiley=thumbup.gif]

Ducatista
13-02-12, 09:46 AM
Did mine a few years ago.
Changed my riding dramtically and I would encourage anyone to do an advanced riding course whatever stage you are at. If you are early on in your learning curve then it will give you a good grounding and a lot of confidence, if you've very experienced it will pick up your bad habits.
If I had my time again I wouldn't bother with IAM and would go straight to Rospa.
Much cheaper to start out and they actually keep their members up to scratch with a re-test every three years at no charge.
Most IAM members do not take further training (it is there but it's voluntary so few take it up).
We go on both sets of rideouts and you can see the difference in standards between the Rospa group who are continually re-tested and the IAM who do it once and then after a while drop their standard.

Bonnielass
13-02-12, 10:23 AM
I took my test last year, I think it made me a safer and more progressive rider. So glad I did it and would recommend it to anyone.

I had a bad start with an observer who didn't give me much information on how to improve my riding. Changed my observer and the first rideout with him, I came home practicing what I had learned! It is important to have confidence in your observer.

As for overtaking, I think most people would say, you need to be on the wrong side of the road for as short a time as possible and it's dangerous to keep looking at your speed to make sure you don't exceed the speed limit. I think the key is to bringing your speed back to the correct speed as soon as possible after the overtake.

Good luck and enjoy!! :)

Ade
13-02-12, 01:07 PM
Did mine a few years ago.
Changed my riding dramtically and I would encourage anyone to do an advanced riding course whatever stage you are at. If you are early on in your learning curve then it will give you a good grounding and a lot of confidence, if you've very experienced it will pick up your bad habits.
If I had my time again I wouldn't bother with IAM and would go straight to Rospa.
Much cheaper to start out and they actually keep their members up to scratch with a re-test every three years at no charge.
Most IAM members do not take further training (it is there but it's voluntary so few take it up).
We go on both sets of rideouts and you can see the difference in standards between the Rospa group who are continually re-tested and the IAM who do it once and then after a while drop their standard.

Hi Lisa ..... I'd like to think that I set out to keep up my IAM test standard each time I get on my bike.

I admit that I haven't done RoSPA so don't go on RoSPA ride outs to see their standards are higher and that roSPA riders keep their standards up better than an IAM rider.

Maybe I should do RoSPA in the next 12 mths or so to become a better rider. :)

Ducatista
13-02-12, 02:20 PM
I'd like to think that I set out to keep up my IAM test standard each time I get on my bike.

I'm sure you do aim to do that but as with any skill you care to think of, if you never do any refresher training or re-testing, the chances are that in 5 years time you will have picked up a couple of bad habits without being aware of them. That's just human nature.

If you want to reach a higher standard or check you haven't picked up any bad habits then you have two choices.
You could voluntarily put yourself forward for the IAM re-test or the IAM special assesment.
There is nothing stopping you doing this any time you want. All I'm saying is that the majority of IAM members do not put themselves forward for re-testing.
At Rospa it's mandatory so you don't have a choice if you want to maintain your qualification.
Not only is it mandatory but it's also free and scheduled which are important factors in making it happen.

Many IAM members think about doing re-testing but don't get round to it (and I am included in that group).

Trev
13-02-12, 03:47 PM
I'll be keeping a keen eye on this thread as going to start mine when it's warmer :)

Don't blame you, not only was it bloody cold yesterday but had to change original route that was planned as roads icy. Still a decent first session though, looking forward to the next in two weeks time but need to put some miles in on the bike (yes I'm one of those that uses a car for work most of the time) and some hours in on the reading - I know which will take preference

Mark_Able
13-02-12, 09:53 PM
'Appropriate use of speed' when it comes to over-taking. My preferred method is to do it as quickly as possible (then return to the speed limit), but there maybe circumstances where it's not warranted. For example, a long straight road with no side turnings, an old codger bimbling along at 35mph in a National, why would you need to exceed the limit? Then again, a short stretch of clear straight where an over-take is possible, but you need to nail it, then you should do whatever speed it takes to make it past safely. Or maybe three cars evenly spread along a reasonable straight, should be done as quickly as possible, and all three should be taken, otherwise it's not worth going for an over-take in the first place (no point over-taking one, and sitting behind the other two, nothing gained). :)

Mas1
13-02-12, 10:23 PM
I took my test last year i got a lot from it i would recommend it to anyone.

Ducatista
13-02-12, 11:13 PM
but you need to nail it, then you should do whatever speed it takes to make it past safely

Sorry if this is stating the obvious but you can't do "whatever" speed on a test and expect to pass.
If excessing speed is required (compared to the limit) then you need to forego the overtake as the examiners from these organisations cannot condone excessive speeding.

Of course if you go on a rideout you'll see very few people sticking to the national speed limits (otherwise known as GLF - go like f***) but plenty of people sticking to good and safe practice as you describe.

mdukx1t
13-02-12, 11:22 PM
i should add when i done my first test ( and failed for too quick ) i had the examiner behind me and the cheif examiner examining him ! so he could not cut any slack - done a day with mark kimpton ( dsa enhanced rider scheme won at c / coome as prize 2010 ) he knows his stuff - would agree top up/refresher training no bad thing

Ducatista
14-02-12, 08:38 AM
i had the examiner behind me and the cheif examiner examining him ! so he could not cut any slack

You're not the only person to have failed in this circumstance.

I know a few people who've failed their IAM test and they are all very good riders.

BTW - IAM re-test after failure is £65, Rospa is free.
If you are dissatisfied with your grade on Rospa then you can re-take for £30 (or wait 3 years).

mdukx1t
14-02-12, 09:54 PM
ummm just to be clear - did pass on second time and on the dsa rider appraisal - band a on all categories - so happy enough - but not so cocky as to think i know it all - know there are better riders than me - happy to learn to stay sharpe/alive

SBQE2
16-02-12, 08:16 PM
I completed my test last December and would recommend this to anyone, but especially less experienced riders like me. The comment that it is important that you are happy with your observer is also very true, I had a couple of observers due to a period of illness extending the training; both were very pleasant but one was considerably more experienced than the other. There are definitely varying standards but as they are all volunteers I guess that is inevitable. I certainly consider it was money well spent.

Mark_Able
16-02-12, 09:53 PM
but you need to nail it, then you should do whatever speed it takes to make it past safely

Sorry if this is stating the obvious but you can't do "whatever" speed on a test and expect to pass.
If excessing speed is required (compared to the limit) then you need to forego the overtake as the examiners from these organisations cannot condone excessive speeding.

Of course if you go on a rideout you'll see very few people sticking to the national speed limits (otherwise known as GLF - go like f***) but plenty of people sticking to good and safe practice as you describe.

Looking at my speedo on an overtake is not something I'd be in the habit of doing. Regardless of whether either RoSPA or IAM or DSA approve of 'excessive' speed during an overtake is rather missing the point. An overtake should be done safely, regardless of speed. Otherwise, what would you regard as an acceptable limit when exceeding the speed limit? Going by the letter of the law, exceeding the limit under any circumstances is not acceptable. But that is not the point. These groups are meant to be promoting 'safe' riding, therefore limits should not come into the equation. The safest overtake is a quick overtake. To say these groups can not condone 'excessive' speed on an overtake, is contradictory. What they are doing is covering their arses, should someone get nicked for speeding, then stands up in court and says 'IAM said it was ok'. That is not promoting safe riding.

Ducatista
16-02-12, 10:38 PM
Given that this is an IAM thread I think it's quite important that IAM/Rospa policy is not mis-quoted or mis-interpreted so I don't think it's missing the point.

The IAM and Rospa do not condone breaking the law.
It's very simple. If you cannot overtake safely without breaking the speed limit then you should not be overtaking.
You will be expected on an advanced test to be able to judge whether you need to exceed the speed limit or not, so you will be expected to show restraint if necessary.
If speed over the limit is required for safety then you'll be expected to decline the overtake, but you are not expected to just "give up".
You are expected to observe the beahviour of the motorist in front. Do they slow down for bends? or in certain circumstances? Can you take advantage of that?
You will be expected to adopt a "following" or "overtaking" postition (see Roadcraft) in various circumstances e.g. you might adopt an overtaking position before a right hand bend, whereas if there are solid white lines you would adopt a following position. You would be expected to be constantly vigilent and in the right place to take an overtake IF a safe and legal one became available.

Does that make it clear?

There is no contradiction there between being legal and safe, because if it's not both safe AND legal then you don't do it.

mdukx1t
16-02-12, 10:59 PM
where did that very lengthy post go to ? :)

Ducatista
16-02-12, 11:00 PM
I pressed the "delete" button and improved upon it :) too lengthy and repetitive.
Even I thought I was waffling on a bit ;)

mdukx1t
16-02-12, 11:03 PM
:) formidable !!! remind me never to cross swords :) :)

Ducatista
16-02-12, 11:11 PM
Are you coming on the rideout on Sunday?
I would encourage you to do that and observe/discuss - no swords ;)

mdukx1t
16-02-12, 11:17 PM
what ride out ?

mdukx1t
16-02-12, 11:26 PM
ah wabam - could do - will feel under the spotlight though :) may vol for tec

Trev
17-02-12, 12:43 AM
it looks as if this advanced riding malarky is much harder work than just plain and simple biking ;) After 30 years of riding I thought an overtake was a pretty simple affair but it appears not.
My instructor said that when a new 'associate' first tries to change their riding pattern their riding can go to rat sh*t (IAM technical term I think) for a while and I can see why. This happened when I took professional golf lessons after years of 'hacking', I developed a 'proper' swing, nice stance and good 'feel for the club' - unfortunately I could no longer hit a ball more than 150 yards and my short game went from poor to bloody hopeless. Fortunately no one gets killed in golf (unless of course playing up the opposite fairway to me) and it was all the encouragement I needed to abandon what is hopeless waste of time and life. Kept the clubs though as handy to greet unwanted visitors to the garage - providing I don't use my 'proper' golf swing, won't hit a thing ;D

@bj
17-02-12, 12:57 AM
Trev - I'm interested to know why you have decided to do IAM after (what I assume is) 30 years successful riding..?

Trev
17-02-12, 01:41 AM
Trev - I'm interested to know why you have decided to do IAM after (what I assume is) 30 years successful riding..?
Good question, not thought about it too much until you asked but I guess for a number of reasons;
1. I have a very good friend (BMW owner, only uses a bike, 20k miles year commuting and touring) who is an instructor and has been gently nudging me
2. My wife bought me the IAM membership and Ride for Life package for Christmas
3. Although riding for 30 years the first 4 or 5 were bike as main means of transport, few seasons of proddy racing, etc then a 20 year stretch where I've always had at least one bike in the garage but not always done much road riding (some touring, lot of off-road, few old classics, a year here and there with reasonable road mileage). jsut over 5 years ago I got back into more consistent road riding, 5-6000 miles year on a couple of different bikes, mainly weekends and the odd longer trip (Cornwall, wales, France). Figured any help in self preservation would be worthwhile
4. Couple of years ago did a police Bikesafe session, interesting and made me think about further training
5. I'm a bit into self development (partly through my business life) and figure most things are worth trying, you usually get some sort of reward out if you put the effort in (not always, see my golf experience)
6. I bought a bike for 'winter use' (little MT03 as didn't like getting the poor old Gixer K out in the muck & salt) and having got out most weekends, which was the idea, sometimes struggle to find an excuse for a decent ride (I like to have a reason/destination to get me going) and thought IAM training every few weeks would be as good as any
7. I wanted to see if I really could be persuaded to wear dayglo ;D

Ade
17-02-12, 01:52 AM
ah wabam - could do - will feel under the spotlight though :) may vol for tec
WaBAM monthly ride is the 3rd Sunday every month.
This Sunday (19th Feb) 9.30am @ Subway, Melksham.
Ride around the Wiltshire / South Glos area ending up for brunch stop at AV8 cafe on Kemble (Cotswold) airfield.
Finish 3pm

Ducatista
17-02-12, 12:14 PM
will feel under the spotlight though Smiley

There is absolutely no need to be concerned.
We all remeber what it was like when we started.
Many of us have our own aims on a rideout.
For example my riding has gone downhill since I started tutoring and focussing too much on the bike infront. So I will be practising looking further ahead and NOT looking at the bike in front, so I will be doing anything but watching you.

There will of course be people generally monitoring things for everyone's enjoyment ad safety, but you won't be being watched beyond making sure you are safe and made to feel welcome etc.

I would encourage you to give it a go.
If you really don't like us you can leave whenever you want, but we make an effort to make everyone feel welcome :)

mdukx1t
17-02-12, 05:04 PM
i was only kidding - dont mind who i ride with - done a few rides with wabam - but not enough for any one to remember me - think the last one i was following a car that was chuckin out rubbish in front of me - i thought they will run out soon - and then i will overtake - bloke on a silver bm got a right strop on - had a go and 1 thought put his self at risk loosin his rag while on the move - but hey his choice - so the watchin thing is a two way street -
givin people feedback can be a dodgy ol game - so try to keep my thoughts on peoples riding style to myself - and in a group work around them - would add got a mate who has done no further training - but has a lot of experience - and i really rate him as a safe rider - all bein well see you sunday ! :)

Mark_Able
17-02-12, 10:20 PM
Given that this is an IAM thread I think it's quite important that IAM/Rospa policy is not mis-quoted or mis-interpreted so I don't think it's missing the point.

The IAM and Rospa do not condone breaking the law.
It's very simple. If you cannot overtake safely without breaking the speed limit then you should not be overtaking.
You will be expected on an advanced test to be able to judge whether you need to exceed the speed limit or not, so you will be expected to show restraint if necessary.
If speed over the limit is required for safety then you'll be expected to decline the overtake, but you are not expected to just "give up".
You are expected to observe the beahviour of the motorist in front. Do they slow down for bends? or in certain circumstances? Can you take advantage of that?
You will be expected to adopt a "following" or "overtaking" postition (see Roadcraft) in various circumstances e.g. you might adopt an overtaking position before a right hand bend, whereas if there are solid white lines you would adopt a following position. You would be expected to be constantly vigilent and in the right place to take an overtake IF a safe and legal one became available.

Does that make it clear?

There is no contradiction there between being legal and safe, because if it's not both safe AND legal then you don't do it.

I understand what you're saying, but both the IAM and RoSPA's position has changed over the years, and goes against the Police's riding system. They're only doing it in the name of not breaking the law, not in the name of safe riding. When I did my IAM test many years ago, there were no limits laid down for an overtake, as long as it was in the right circumstances. I personally do not like the new stance taken by these groups, however you defend their position. Apologies if I sound argumentative.

@bj
18-02-12, 12:27 AM
Trev - I'm interested to know why you have decided to do IAM after (what I assume is) 30 years successful riding..?
Good question, not thought about it too much until you asked but I guess for a number of reasons;
1. I have a very good friend (BMW owner, only uses a bike, 20k miles year commuting and touring) who is an instructor and has been gently nudging me
2. My wife bought me the IAM membership and Ride for Life package for Christmas
3. Although riding for 30 years the first 4 or 5 were bike as main means of transport, few seasons of proddy racing, etc then a 20 year stretch where I've always had at least one bike in the garage but not always done much road riding (some touring, lot of off-road, few old classics, a year here and there with reasonable road mileage). jsut over 5 years ago I got back into more consistent road riding, 5-6000 miles year on a couple of different bikes, mainly weekends and the odd longer trip (Cornwall, wales, France). Figured any help in self preservation would be worthwhile
4. Couple of years ago did a police Bikesafe session, interesting and made me think about further training
5. I'm a bit into self development (partly through my business life) and figure most things are worth trying, you usually get some sort of reward out if you put the effort in (not always, see my golf experience)
6. I bought a bike for 'winter use' (little MT03 as didn't like getting the poor old Gixer K out in the muck & salt) and having got out most weekends, which was the idea, sometimes struggle to find an excuse for a decent ride (I like to have a reason/destination to get me going) and thought IAM training every few weeks would be as good as any
7. I wanted to see if I really could be persuaded to wear dayglo ;D
Any chance you can condense it to one sentence..?

Ducatista
18-02-12, 10:30 AM
but both the IAM and RoSPA's position has changed over the years

Yep things have changed and not for the better.
We live in a very litigious society where people that have had a 2mph bump in a car will claim thousands of pounds for whiplash.
The IAM/Rospa observers/tutors are volunteers operating at a loss with a lot less training than the police so of course we have to be careful not just for ourselves but also for our students.

I expect the police are also very careful about what they say during their training, because even on emergency calls they are not exempt from the law.

I actually agree with you but I also don't think that IAM and Rospa could operate with open disregard for the law. They wouldn't get liability insurance and wouldn't get the co-operation of the police (bike safe, GetSmart etc.) etc. and that would be a huge loss. There does have to an acceptable public face in order for the good work to continue.


I personally do not like the new stance taken by these groups, however you defend their position.

I am not defending their position, I am just making sure any new people don't get the wrong impression that they can brazenly speed and justify it with safety.


Apologies if I sound argumentative.

No need to apologise.
I actually agree with you, but I also don't believe these organisations could operate with brazen disregard for the law.

I genuinely believe the work they do saves lives and injuries and so do lots of other people and that's why there are so may people (about 60 tutors in wilts) willing do it for nothing or at a loss.

You may not like their stance and I sympathise with that view, but the good work will continue regardless as it has an impetus and unfortuantely I suspect lots of areas of life will continue to get even more risk averse with respect to litigation.

Ducatista
18-02-12, 10:58 AM
Any chance you can condense it to one sentence..?

Can anyone join in?

You improved observation, planning, positioning and responsiveness may one day save your life or a limb.

Bonnielass
18-02-12, 12:12 PM
Any chance you can condense it to one sentence..?

Can anyone join in?

You improved observation, planning, positioning and responsiveness may one day save your life or a limb.

Exactly!! :)

@bj
18-02-12, 01:24 PM
Any chance you can condense it to one sentence..?

Can anyone join in?

You improved observation, planning, positioning and responsiveness may one day save your life or a limb.

I've no doubt that's what it says in the book...

I'm more interested in Trevs personal point of view as someone who already has 30+ years of bike riding experience... Thanks

Trev
19-02-12, 08:07 PM
Any chance you can condense it to one sentence..?

Can anyone join in?

You improved observation, planning, positioning and responsiveness may one day save your life or a limb.

I've no doubt that's what it says in the book...

I'm more interested in Trevs personal point of view as someone who already has 30+ years of bike riding experience... Thanks


Hi O. apologies for the long winded response, late night reflection at it's worse :-X

If I had to pick one reason then 'cos I like to have a reason/destination to get me out for decent a run and with plenty lined up for the warmer months (track days, touring, ride-outs, etc) then thought IAM training would be as good a reason as any for the cold & wet months - simple as ;)